4 Table $10/$20 HUNL Session Review (part 3)
Posted by Kevin Rabichow
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Great series overall, I really enjoyed it.
I have two questions about choosing bet sizings. 14:15 the Q4 hand on table 4. I don't have very concrete ideas here so I apologize if this comes off as rambling.
The river 4 straights and you bet 360 into 535 but mention in game that it's probably too small because only a small percentage of his range will be 4x and he almost never holds a better straight where as you'll have almost all of them. Because of that you preferred a larger sizing.
When you're structuring your range sizing here, what things are you thinking about? Are you just basically asking yourself what the biggest portion of your value betting range is and choosing a size in order to max that hand-class's EV? What about other hands you might want to value bet here like sets and maybe even kings up. Is this a viable spot to use multiple bet sizing's in order to max the EV of various subsections of your value range? It's probably not a spot where we'd have to be too worried about protecting our various sizing's simply because villain is capped and we won't get raised often unless he knows our exact strategy.
Another aspect of bet sizing I'm curious about is if we're betting with a polarized range, and villain's range is mostly bluff catchers but is still technically. Take the Q4 example but lets assume he can have a few 48/89 combos that he originally couldn't. In theory should we still be sizing very large with our value range and then adding the appropriate amount of bluffs? If so, at what point does the threshold of nut hands:bluff catchers become too significant that we have to start toning down our bet sizing? Could this just be solved using MDF's? The other issue I'm having comes into play when we start betting our value range so large that we oscillate villain's range such that he only continues with hands that are chopping or beating our value range. For instance we wouldn't be able to bet 3x pot on this Q4 river with a set because he would be calling with such a narrow range that a set couldn't get value. If that's the case then doesn't choosing this larger sizing strategy hurt the EV of some of our weaker value bets? Would this be a prime example of a spot where we should be utilizing multiple bet sizings?
Multiple bet sizes are a nice solution to a lot of river situations like this and I think it's perhaps necessary here. My straights have a much higher possible EV here than sets/2prs but all of those hands are likely good value bets given the low frequency of straights in villain's range.
You're addressing the right concepts with regards to choosing a bet size, with perhaps not enough emphasis on what' his continuing range will look like vs a variety of bet sizes. Once we've determined that we can think about which one of those responses the hands in our value range would like to get - maximizing the EV of each part of our range. If i was picking one bet size I'd try to gear that size towards the most frequent hand class in order to maximize range EV.
around 13 mins, u defend Th8s bb flop AJ7hh check check, turn Tcc, you check call pot, river 4o you check fold but mention you think youre likely to call down here. Do you consider calling here often because we 1) dont block Kx, Qx, 9x that could be bluffing, 2) we dont block any clubs that came on the turn that could be bluffing?
-is Kx/Qx for villain going to be checked down for showdown value occasionally? If so would it be better to choose TK/TQ no club ourselves for heroing here given we dont block the weaker straight draws that brick out (9x, 8x) or the clubs.
-I feel like he chose the large bet size figuring your range is somewhat capped (you woulda 3b pre with most of the hands that make sets on this board and potentially AJ) plus you checked instead of lead turn on draw heavy board
-we have a ton of Jx here, better Tx, weak Ax, and some traps for getting here so im surprised you were going to call very often- so is it mostly in the blocker value that you said that? (not blocking clubs or some of the gutties that bricked)
around 36mins when you 3b KcQs and CB QT6cc. barrel the 8hh and he jams and you fold. How do you like his shove if he has K9hh, 67hh, AXhh, or similar club club type of hands? and of course some of the more vulnerable value hands like two pair/sets for value? Then he could call with all the pair + str8 draws, and straights if he wants?
thx for the vid !
Yeah with his sizing and knowing my own checking range I probably dont need to call river but I'm still interested in doing it sometimes. It's early in the match and I'm being suspicious about his bluff frequency, among other things.
Shoving there would certainly be a fine play with those hands and a lot of sets and 2pr would probably like to shove as well. I think some weak 2pr hands would be overplaying a bit on this type of turn where I'm tempted to check some of my stronger hands and also bet/folding ones like this, but generally that's a reasonable strategy. He'll likely have to bluff a lot wider than you're suggesting if he wants me to pay him off, though.
at 27mins, how would you construct your ranges in the 3b pot J83fd, Q turn. would you have a c/c and a very polarized betting range? do you think checking all of your range could be reasonable strategy here?
I don't like checking my range here - there's too many hands that are still worthy of getting value that simply hate checking vs a big part of his range. Only if he's taking a very aggressive strategy here would that seem reasonable but he's got clear checks with 99/TT and every 8x/Jx hand with hands like QT probably checking as well quite often. Overpair+heart hands or 2pr/sets and small flushes would really hate giving free rivers to those hands considering that they're still quite strong on this street so I'd likely have a betting range based around those hands as my value region - checking otherwise to x/c or x/f.
Q4 hand on table 4, 16:00:
We will probably need to use multiple bet sizes on the river to maximize the value of our strategy.
Overbetting 89 seems best especially bc we don't block his 4x calling range (and we can make it a traditional nuts or air vs bluff catcher spot where betting very large should yield the most EV).
Closer to pot sizing with our 4x seems good since we are targeting a wider segment of his range for value and we probably don't want to use a size so large where villain perceives he only needs to defend his straights to arrive at a reasonable frequency.
Agreed, I mentioned using multiple bet sizes here in an above comment as well.
Table 2 @ 8.11 7Thh
Do you think if this hand was shown down, it would alert him to the fact he might be over folding to turn probes? What would you think if a random villain chose this type hand to probe bet the turn vs you ie no equity
He'd probably realize I'd made an adjustment, yeah. It's pretty unusual to see this showdown but it's also not impossible to make probe bluffs like this as part of a balanced strategy. There are several very good regs I've played against recently who wouldn't surprise me at all by having this bluff on the turn, intending to follow through almost only when obvious draws are completed.
The way I'd react to it depends entirely on frequency - if he's probing these hands along with draws and 2nd pair+ then I probably don't ever need to cbet...his frequency could easily break 60% with that type of range. If he's simply checking more draws in favor of these hands then it's not as clear how I'll respond but it will at least make me more confident in calling down twice vs barrels on scary looking rivers.
Impressive reply thank you.
I find this really interesting as most of the regs i play are over folding a large amount in this spot and i want to just probe turns relentlessly, but it feels wrong when i use non equity hands as i judge others harshly when they choose a bad bluffing hand in any spot. Only following through on the best run outs with these probes sounds great, i will be trying this out.
Yes i agree i would just use the bluff polar side of my cbet range and check the rest. I like how you have went the step further to break down his range, i usaly just see a non equity bluff and go into call down mode as i assume thier auto over bluffing.
Table 2 @ 34.25 KQo
We have 97s J9s QQ TT QTs AA KK AQ and KQo in our 3bet range that takes this line, KQo seems to be the worst made value hand we actually have. What would be the worst value hand you call off QTs?
How would the info we now have that he will shove turns on us change your turn barreling strat, would you consider x/c line with AJcc AKhh on the turn if you choose to cbet flop? Same question for hands like 75s 45s KJs.
Yeah I'd basically be looking to check more with hands that most want to realize their equity - the big combo draws being the most obvious ones and perhaps KJ or AJ as well if I got here with them. I'd still have to bluff some hands and 75s/45s are probably some of my favorites but AK seems like a nice bluff as well for 3 streets here if I don't have a flush draw. I think any 2pr hand is a call vs a shove here - not sure I'd need to be expanding beyond that given that I'm already adjusting by checking some pretty strong 1 pair hands.
33:30 tbl2. You 3b, cbet flop, talked about merits to checking turn to strengthen your checking range...etc. Why is checking better than trying to take a bet, bet, x/c or x/f ilne? Are you expecting to pick off a decent number of turn bluffs? Do you think you can get looked up by worse on blank rivers if you lead blank rivers?
I definitely expect to make a successful river value bet if he checks behind and we get a blank - he'd be seriously over folding this spot if I couldn't. That said I'm never going for 3 streets here and when we bet the turn we risk getting shoved on by a range that puts us in a bluffcatching spot, which we don't want with a 2 street hand.
We also protect the 8x in our range when we check this hand because we're giving ourselves a hand that can x/c twice more effectively than 8x by simply taking our weakest flop vbet and checking turn with it to bluffcatch. It's not necessary to check many hands like KQ here but I think it's a good candidate for what I'm trying to accomplish.
against this guy:
are you x/c twice on 8c turn, brick river with KQo and x/c only turn with 8X? and on the wettest of rivers are you still x/c KQo or what rivers would you be folding KQo to?
great vid.
at 20min,what bluffs do you have with 99? you say you wanna bet larger but there doesn't seem to be much air in your range. Do you turn 7x into a bluff or a hand like AT ?
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