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4 Table $10/$20 6-Max NLHE Live Session (part 2)

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4 Table $10/$20 6-Max NLHE Live Session (part 2)

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Sauce123

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4 Table $10/$20 6-Max NLHE Live Session (part 2)

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Sauce123

POSTED Apr 15, 2016

Ben continues to share his thoughts on the play at the $10/$20 Zoom NLHE games as he grinds a session.

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Juan Copani 9 years ago

Hi,

Thanks for the video Ben, this kind of video its specially good for me since i usually play most of this guys, i find very interesting the strategy that you did choose at min 19.15 with A9dd BBvSB on A64 A 3. You did check behind the turn with trips after betting small the flop and said that you would be raising on the river. That means any river ? I can clearly see how we are interested on having a raising range on cards like 2/3/5/7/8 since we could rep some straights, and then add some other type hands to that range like A9 for example. But are not you worried about the capness of your range on cards like T/J/Q/K ? In case that we would still raising on T/J/Q/K rivers, what kind of hands would be trying to make him indifferent from calling/folding ?

Sauce123 9 years ago

Won't we have TT/JJ/QQ/KK on those rivers? And also AA?

On the [T-K] rivers he should almost always be leading that pair, as well as some of the underpairs + stronger kicker. We can expect him to call the raise with some of his pairs, as well as a few worse Ax (which should be likely in a sb limp/call range).

fluxrazza 9 years ago

TT hand you really think he's gonna bluffraise this sizing ever? If he's sitting there with KK, KQ and feels like making a move he'll just shove. For this size if he was ever going to bluff, a hand like AT makes a fair bit of sense to do it with, so I think your blockers further screw you over against an already massively Jx-heavy range.

jdstl 9 years ago

29:40 3d3 vs OTB on 8d2d4hAd7s

Is the idea of an open jamming range on the river basically that IP's range will have a ton of hands that bet turn and check back river, and OOP will have a mix of nut hands, relative air hands like 3d3 and then some middling hands (since you probably don't play a turn x/r game at all). Leading some % of his nut hands allows OOP to up his game value.

Do we also want this range in order to make some of IP's tweener hands more indifferent between value shoving and checking back river? If OOP never leads than value betting AK as IP feels pretty dicey.

Sauce123 9 years ago

We'll definitely need to put some money in either by XR turn or open jam river. XR turn is the more obvious play. I was just mentioning that river jam might happen in spots kind of similar to this but I really have no idea if it's good in this particular spot.

jdstl 9 years ago

15:00 Table 2 886r Tu To vs OTB

He sizes turn ~210 into ~910.

Could you go into a bit more detail on this hand from OTB's perspective?

What hand class does this sizing work best for? Stuff like 77-22? You also mentioned that it's possible he's playing an all in sizing as well. I can't really think of many hands that would prefer AI for value here. It doesn't seem like there are nearly any hands that would would be strong enough to go all in on the turn but couldn't value bet nearly all rivers after being put in the small range. Stuff like J9s might fit well in all in, but they seem like they also do fine in x back or the small sizing. Do you think it's mandatory to play both sizings there? At SPR ~ 3 or so I think I play a small sizing and a 3/4 ish sizing but at SPR 1.8 I think I might just be playing the small sizing with range and then a single all in sizing on rivers at SPR ~1.25. Am I leaving money on the table here by not utilizing other sizings?

ivan987 9 years ago

i guess he was talking about MMA's shove and bet small range on the bottom right table, so it's definately fine you dont prefer the allin sizing on the top right. :)

Sauce123 9 years ago

I think anything from 25-40% is doing most of the betting in spots like this. The T turn is one where many hands in OTB's range want protection from overcards, as well as value from overcards, so a small sizing forces a mixed strategy from this very frequent handclass (assuming OOP is playing a very frequent CB, which seems likely). Betting too often for protection forces overpairs to XR, betting too little makes them bet. The equilibrium generally features a mixed strategy with most combos in IP's range.

depresnyak 9 years ago

What's the reasoning behind your small opening sizing SB v BB (2.3x) as opposed to your gigantic 3b sizes OOP (up to 5.5x) ? Is it simply because you believe BB has enough hands that have to fold even vs 2.3x or there is a much deeper explanation?

Sauce123 9 years ago

I like the 2.3x because it applies pressure to the very weak disconnected hands cheaply (T4o<, J2o< type stuff) while minimizing the money I'm putting in OOP.

A lot of other top regulars use a limp/raise/LRR mix, typically with a 3bb RFI. Others use a 3x/fold or even 4x fold strategy.

Ben 9 years ago

Thanks for the video
What areas of the game do you think OTB is playing differently that makes him the better player ?

Sauce123 9 years ago

The age old question.

For me this is always a Catch-22; if I knew what OTB was doing better than me, I'd be doing it myself!

thebeegan 9 years ago

Hey Ben, Im a sng player transitioning to cash and have been studying your vids hard, watching most of them multiple times and learning a ton, so thanks for that. At 16.50, why are you overbetting the 8d9c on Qc7dAcJd

Sauce123 9 years ago

We expect IP to mostly 3b 77/QQ/AA/AT+, so that leaves him with a much lower frequency of near-nut hands on the turn. I develop a polarized a overbetting range to increase my EV vs the region A[2-T] and even weaker 2PR as well as Qx/FD by forcing money in with my hands AT+.

Randomator 9 years ago

Good stuff Ben. My favorite liveplay series on RIO by far.

Sauce123 9 years ago

Thanks!

I had some misgivings with this series. I'm playing 4 tables of zoom where I'm trying not to sound like an idiot while playing high stakes live. I know a few times I'd be thinking some decision over and the stuff coming out of my mouth wasn't keeping pace with the thoughts in my head.

I'll try and mix these sorts of videos in more often now, judging from the positive response.

Like.a.G6 9 years ago

2 things:
1.) Those small SB opens. I honestly though those small sizings are universally acccepted as wrong. How many hands can BB defend against 2,3x raise from SB? Isn't the number so high and close to 100% anyway, that it's better to invest 72% less chips by limping? You have been doing some 3,5x or 4x BvB raises in some previous videos haven't you? I though that's how you should play against a tough lineup that defends BB correctly. Either limp or raise more than the standard 3x.
2.) 18:40 you raise QJs against Eccentric's limp with the good old "standard raise +1bb for each limper" sizing. Isn't this a mistake against someone who limps correctly? If he just raised to say 45, your 3bet sizing would be something around 4x, so lets say 180. So when you 3bet and the action gets back to him, he would have to call 135 into pot 390. So he would have to realize 34,6% of the pot to call. But if he limps 20 and you raise to 66 and the action gets back to him, he has to call 46 into pot 162, so he has to realize 28,4% of the pot. Isn't this where his limping strategy is crushing you? It's much easier for him to defend against your izo, than it would be against your 3bet if he just openraised. And there is also much higher chance of someone behind us just flatting than it would be if it was std open/3bet spot, which should further help him to call light when the action gets back to him in a multiway pot.

Sauce123 9 years ago
  1. It's possible that my potshare in the cases where BB puts money in with really bad hands is very high. So I don't think it follows from the observation that BB can VPIP often vs 2.3x that 2.3x is worse than another sizing.
  2. I could make a similar argument to the above. The main difference here though is that if I'm IP vs a limp, I can make a raise that increases my EV and ECBG's EV while denying EV to the blinds. By making an Iso-raise, I price out a lot of the terrible hands in the BB/SB's range that could continue vs a limp.
WalterWhite 9 years ago

Hi Ben, great video as always. Really appreciate the clarity of your thought process and the way you expound it in your videos.

I have a question regarding your hud. Are the statistics shown filtered solely for 6 players or do they include games that ran short handed? The reason I ask is because some of the players seem to have rather high VPIPs, for example, OTB_Redbaron at 35%. Is this just a factor of skill edge or due to short handed games skewing the numbers. If it is the latter, how do you go about assigning ranges given that the figures are misrepresented?

Sauce123 9 years ago

WW,

I think the HUD I used in this video was filtered for 4+, but it might have been 3+. I was also surprised at the stats it was returning for OTB, which makes me think it might have been 3+ (and probably we have played the most hands 3 handed). I'd guess the stats are misleading.

I don't use a HUD as much as most players, especially vs very strong players. I think a HUD is most useful for picking out how bad a rec player is very quickly. I want my HUD to show me whether a new player is playing a 40 VPIP or a 60 VPIP, etc. Against regulars I like to study their game by looking at how they play individual combos against me and getting inside their head more.

To take a concrete example of how I play vs regulars, I responded to a comment above ITT about how I think OTB might play in the 3bp A4cc on 886rT (15:00, Jd.stl's comment). A sophisticated HUD might say something like 'float vs missed double barrel in 3bp' and give a stat of like 33% or something. I think it'd be a mistake to take even a line-specific stat like that as an accurate predictor of OTB's play on the 886rTo, because I know that this spot calls for frequent, small bets, whereas another board like AK39s calls for fewer larger bets. So, instead, I'd try to get inside OTB's head and guess if he's getting out of line in the 886rT spot, independent of what my HUD says about superficially similar spots.

Londonjonathan 9 years ago

Excellent video.
The 1010, flopped top set: his raise to 800, to win 1100 or so if you fold the river means your alpha call rate has to be 11/19. Surely, when he has no jack you have at least 11/19 of your range made up of Jx in this spot. I'd have thought you should pick bluffs and blocking bets as a ratio of your range such that you don't have to call with this? Also, do you a think a smaller river sizing was better, balanced with some KJ and some bottom pair on flop, backdoor flush draw hands that you might bluff raise with on flop occasionally. It seemed to me your block bet wouldn't get any value from worse at that sizing.

DragOn_ 9 years ago

Hey thanks for the video, good stuff as usual :)

24:10 98o why are u 3betting 98o? I would think its losing money against the button call range OOP. Assuming that its not losing money, wouldnt that mean that literally any suited connector or gapper, and many other hands are also making (more) money there, and that you should pick those over the offsuit hands? If you could explain the though process in your range construction there it would be great.

26:20 J9s why are the blockers good to bet turn? we block AJ and A9 but also JJ and 99 which we want to fold I think?

37:50 why is 53s good to overbet shove? The reasons I can think of are that we have zero showdown value, and we block 65, we dont block spades. But 65 may have folded turn (I dont know if its supposed to or not), and if we are 3x overbetting dont we want to pick bluffs that block sets? So in this case I guess 2x, since 8x might be a checkback. What would you be value betting in this situation?

39:15 66 what made you decide to bet roughly 3/4pot instead of overbetting your rivered house?

Jonathan Kohen 9 years ago

Great video, love the live play format and hope to see more of it (although the theory vids are the best on the site).

oma han 8 years, 11 months ago

Hi, I am always grateful to you.
I would like to ask about your bet sizing on the flop in 3bet pots and vsBB pots.
Why do you decide frequently to bet small?
And How do you diced to bet big on similar situation?
I can understand small bet sizing against wide range BB.(especially I have position)
I would like to know more about your process to decide bet sizing.
I'll be waiting for your reply! Thank you.

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