3-Betting From The BB
Posted by Qing Yang
Video Player is loading.
This is a modal window.
The media could not be loaded, either because the server or network failed or because the format is not supported.
Resume Video
Start from Beginning
Watch Video
10
Loading 60 Comments...
wow can't believe 5x is the size with the most EV. Great video as usual
Thanks! Do note that this is only true for the parameters I used (100bb stacks, 3x open etc). Against 2.5x I'm guessing the optimal size is around 6x, since we achieve a similar SPR after IP calls. Not to mention it's the size that most 500z regs are using :)
Qing Yang why would the smaller rfi sizes make us 3b larger?
eatyourveggies My guess is that the smaller open size becomes "too good" if BB continues to make it 5x, since IP has similar pot odds but better playability postflop. So BB goes bigger (6x) in order to "push" the equilibrium in the opposite direction (2.5x -> 3x open).
I play 500z and dont see many regs at all making 15bb 3bets over 2.5x opens...some 6x 3bets do occur vs min raises tho. But anyways, I think its pretty dangerous to 'guess' in such scenarios. Better to just run the sim with 2.5x open raise and see. Liked the video tho, all of yours to be honest are pretty good. Keep it up
Saulo Ribeiro Hey man, this is really embarrassing. I watch quite a few of the 500z vids (yours included!) on the site, and noticed that it usually goes 12.50 -> 60 for IP vs BB. But all along I've been thinking that 62.50/12.50 is 6 instead of 5.
Thanks for the correction, I'm horrified by my mistake but at the same time thrilled that you liked the video haha. Thanks for the encouragement, means a lot coming from you :)
3bet size is less about creating a low SPR and more about laying a price that costs IP the most pot share.
For the 3bb open and 15bb 3bet: IP has to call 12 to play a pot of 30.5. 12 / 30.5 = 0.393
0.393 = raise / (2raise + 2open + 0.5)
open = 2.5, raise = 10.1 (on top)
open = 2, raise = 8.26
So we’re still using close to 5x for these sizes. BUT, this assumes our range doesn’t change. Since our 3bet range gets smaller and more polarized from bb vs smaller opens, it would make sense to me if the solver recommends something like 5.5x 3bet vs 2.5bb open and 6x vs 2bb open.
Don’t be embarrassed by one mistake, I think you’re making the best videos on the site right now, Qing. Keep it up!
Yeah mistakes happen, no big deal. You are welcome ;)
Thank you thereheis, I'm really flattered.
Will probably do a part 2 with smaller opens and compare the difference.
I wasn't 100% sure about what I said earlier (flop SPR being unimportant for the 3bet size), so I ran BB vs. BTN 300bb with 2.5bb open, and 3bets to 4x, 5x, and 6x.
4x:
EV(OOP): -4.326
EV(IP): 9.326
5x:
EV(OOP): -4.299
EV(IP): 9.299
6x:
EV(OOP): -4.331
EV(IP): 9.329
Again, 5x is doing just a little better than the other options. But it doesn't matter too much which size you choose, so long as the size puts pressure on a part of villain's range and doesn't torch too much of your flat calling equity (e.g. 3bet to 2.5x).
Thanks, that's really useful to know.
I think SPR does play an important part when stacks are shallower though. Eg at 50bb I'm pretty sure the smaller sizes become better, since IP won't be able to defend as many hands profitably.
Very nice video! I always thought 3x or 3.5x was optimal. Thank you!
Nice vid, really enjoying your content.
Do you think, rake impacts our 3bet strat if you are in small stackes with higher rake for example
Definitely, in general we want to 3/4/5bet more aggressively when rake is high AND there is no rake preflop, in order to take down the pot and avoid getting raked.
When there is preflop rake however, this effect disappears, and we just play tighter without being more aggressive.
Others questions, at 18min, we see BB 5bet shove TT+ agaisnt Sb 4betting range and 77,66 at some frequencies, when I worked with preflop snowie range, I noticed this, can you explaij why the solver choose 77,66 to jam and not 99 or 88?
Do you think that include more on low sc one or 2 gappers like 56s 45s 68s when we are more deep (200bb deep for exemple) is a good strategies ? How our 3betting range impact ? when we are polar ? linear. ? Because of deeper we are, the more boardcoverage is important.
Thank !
Probably because SB is 4bet/folding lots of 8x (and not much 7x or 6x), so we get more folds when we jam 77/66 compared to 88. This is very unlikely to apply in practice, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to it.
Yes the suited connectors go up in value as stacks get deeper. Haven't run the sims, but I imagine that 200bb in position 56s etc gets 3bet a lot, since we still have a lot of EV even when we get 4bet.
These sims were considering pre flop rake?
These sims are rake free, with a reduced small blind to simulate preflop rake. It's not exact, but at least it stops both players from reraising aggressively to avoid getting raked.
Cool video. Pretty wild that IP is 4bet shoving AKo and TT-JJ a lot from BTN, and AKo and QQ from CO. This isn't something I see in game. Do you know does this happen at all vs a 4x sizing, or is it just because of the 5x sizing?
Also, if you are doing more preflop videos I would love to see one about defending vs 4bets, its a situation I struggle with because the player pool constructs their 4bet ranges so differently - some people are 4betting too much, some too little, and their hand choices vary as well, so I find it difficult to know how to construct a generic 3bet/flat range when facing a 4bet.
You're right, vs 5x there's enough dead money in the pot to justify 4b shoving some strong but vulnerable hands. Whereas vs 4x there's a negligible amount of shoving going on, unless ranges are really wide. I guess this is another reason why we don't 3bet so big in HUNL--we just create too much dead money for IP to shove over.
Hello Qing Yang awesome vid.
28:20 the sim vs BTN : That's one concept I am struggling with if IP is pure Raise/folding A4o to ATo why BB is not pure 3betting lowest suited AX ?
For the question at 30:15 about why AA is a raisecall vs 5X 3bet. my guess it is because AA does not need protection and the SPR will be low enough that IP can stackoff OOP .
Thx for the great content.
Hey good question,
Domination is only one out of many factors. A hand like KQs gets 3bet all the time (even though it's not that efficient domination-wise) because we can almost always play for stacks when we hit a pair. Whereas the wheel aces don't flop quite as well--we only have one overcard vs a very pp heavy calling range, and even when we do hit our ace we can't comfortably play for stacks.
You're right about AA, we have too much equity vs his 3bet/folds, so at this SPR we just flat to keep his bluffs in.
Lovely was looking for this topic, thank you!
Nice video, would also be curious to see how the sims change vs smaller OR sizes.
I guess Part 2 is in order!
What is the BB 3b % the solver suggests BB vs Bttn?
12.21% for 5x, 13.14% for 4x.
Wow, its quite tough getting there! I'm at 9%ish and it feels like so much haha :p
So 6x in the video is in reality 5x ?
No no the video is fine, it's just my comment above (where I said most 500z regs 3bet to 6x vs a 2.5x open) that is wrong.
oh ok , thanks for quick reply
I think you did an awesome job with this video. Your explanations are really nice and easy to understand. Great work!
Thank you! Love your content (and Amy's editing) too!
Hi Qing. I was playing live 1$/2$ yesterday where the rfi size was 6 X. How would this alter my BB 3 bet sizings? Thanks in advance.
With 100bb stacks, I'd 3bet to about 3x, especially facing a wide open. No need to go so big--it's not like he can defend a lot of hands profitably anyway, given the SPR we create.
How would 200 bb play differ from 100 bb?
It seems like the optimal sizing doesn't change much (as thereheis pointed out in one of his comments). However I would definitely 3bet more suited aces/SCs, and less offsuit broadway.
Is it possible that BB 3betting some hands(low suited connectors) just to have bluffs in some favorable runouts. (COvsBB for example and some nice board maybe Qxx(Kxx) or paired one and turn come Ace/King) ?
It's definitely important to have bluffs on various runouts, but I think the focus should still be on how often our hand can make the nuts by the river. Once we 3bet a range that has some nuts on every river, the bluffs kind of just fall into place :)
More of these please. Great video is all I can say. Succinct, without useless fillers, understandable and what they call in financial markets: it gives you actionable ideas.
If you could explain the pricing of the product that you are using because I really can't wrap my head around their points system!
Thank you!
I shared it with a friend, 2 licenses for US$350 IIRC. Not sure about the points thing because he made the purchase. Think monker is better value for money if you don't already have a postflop solver and/or you play PLO.
Hi Qing, Isn't it possible that the optimal size in many spots is actually between 4x and 5x? Have you tried plugging in 4.5x to the solver?
Yup, that's entirely possible, and something I recommend trying on your own :)
I saw this video months back and although I did take some knowledge away from it, I didn't understand it like I do now. This is really great stuff and I'm directly applying it into my games and seeing an immediate return on investment. Larger sizings OOP creating a smaller SPR which favors us has exposed a whole new array of leaks for me to plug.
Glad you found it useful!
Hi, thanks for amazing video.
27:44~
Do you have any idea that BB 3bets 5x with off suit broadway like KTo, QTo, JTo vs 42% vpip??
I feel like that SPR is getting smaller, so suitedness makes less sense than using 3~4x size 3bet.
Actually thsese off suited combos make up largely part of 3betting range and have much effects on CB frequency especially on A high.
Yup, as 3bet size goes up the focus shifts towards 3betting hands with better removal (like Axo). Whereas for a small 3bet we don't get as many folds, so we tend to prefer more playable/suited hands.
So, just to be clear... if you're playing 5/10. Somebody opens to 30, 5x means you make it 150, correct?
Yes, that is correct.
Is 5x also the optimal sizing against an utg range?
Anything between 4x and 5x is gonna be pretty close. But as ranges get tighter, bigger sizes tend to perform just as well. We can go as big as 6x vs UTG, main reason being we are 3betting a much more polarised range (since the mid PPs tend to play better as calls).
Is it practical to 3bet 6x vs utg? and how his range is gonna look like(UTG player) (I imagine not much betting at all (less than 1%) but what people call :? or PIO
BB 6x vs 12% open, and response vs 3bet. I guess it could work quite well in practice if we expect population to never fold QQ and JJ.
Great Video! May I ask what's computer specs needed to make this calculation?
I'm a computer noob so can't help you there, but I think requirements are listed on the simplepoker website.
Thanks for the reply, I really like the way your explain things. After watching all your videos I realized that I misunderstood a lot of things from Kanu7's course. Although I have deeper understanding of how ranges interact with boards and how it affects our overall betting strategies, but I still can't effectively convert those frequencies to actual strategy that I can implement. May I ask Is there an efficient way to solve this problem? or maybe I'm not hardworking enough.
Amazing video thank you!
maybe if you could quickly comment on the general idea of 3betting smaller than PIO vs opponents who play ok/good in SRP but are bad in 3bet pots/play more face up both preflop and postflop in 3bet pots. This happens a lot in Live passive games, some bad regs are not used to a lot of 3 betting and fee very uncomfortable in 3 bet pots.
So does the idea of 3betting more often (which usually means smaller I believe) against them makes sens or am i missing something?
Maybe this works deeper but less at 100bb? More room to use postflop edge?
thank you again, great video
great video.
Hi Qing Yang , is the EV shown in the Excel chart the post flop EV or the EV of the entire action like you're explaining in the Notepad file?
They are nash EVs for the entire game tree, so it includes flatting EV.
Be the first to add a comment
You must upgrade your account to leave a comment.