$2k SCOOP Progressive KO MTT (part 1)
Posted by Jeremy Menard
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@24.00 Do you think checking back on this flop turns your hand pretty much face up as weak value, or do you check back this flop with KQ/KJ/QT some percentage aswell? Generally check back ranges on Axx flops are so much stronger than cbet ranges, population seems to pretty much cbet bluff every air hand. Would a 1/3 pot cbet with your entire range be more effective?
Thanks for the question. I think its important that we do develop a check back range that consists of some showdown value type hands like the Kx hands you mentioned, potentially some weaker flush draw hands like 78dd and 89dd, medium to higher pairs and some weaker Ax hands that are either way ahead or way behind and don't need much protection. The nature of this exact flop which contains only a few straight draws and I have a blocker for several, flush draws, and the fact its paired means that the vast majority of his range is going to fold to a c bet so there is some incentive to construct a check back range to try to gain some value if possible from these auto fold hands that the villain most often has. I agree that a 1/3 pot bet is close to optimal with the vast majority of our range on this flop, but I do like the idea of balancing our ranges and having a check back range as well. I'd love to hear more thoughts on this from you guys.
The first KJo hand looks like a clear fold on the river to me. You just block too much of his bluffing range.
That said, I think the range you gave villain looked too wide to be optimal, but if that's the range you genuinely think he does have then it's a snap call to exploit his terrible river sizing (should be a river shove from villain here since he's totally polar and you can't really have any traps).
I agree that against most opponents this river bet is a clear fold, because they won't have enough bluffs in their range to make it a correct call. I believe that this villain has a larger range for bluffs, and that range is very close to the weighted range that i assigned in the video. Even though we have the Kh which blocks quite a bit of his bluffs there still are a lot of combo draws present along with potential missed straight draws that he frequently will barrel given that my range is so heavily weighted toward medium strength one pair Jx and strong 9x hands that are put in a very tough spot when he fires a large bet on the river. This opponent is very competent and capable, so I think this makes this a much closer spot than most would assume. I strongly recommend players keep in mind opponents betting tendencies and aggression frequency when assigning ranges and deciding whether or not to make a call in a tough spot.
The last hand with AJo on BTN. Actually I do like betting on turn because of few reasons:
1. Huge part of my flating range from BTN (when we are so deep) includes 8, 9 or even 88 or 99, so if opponent have got there 66 or 77, we actually go for value some part of the time. We can also assume that density of 8s and 9s is on our side, like he has not 8s or 9s very often in opening range from EP.
2. With hands like KQ or AJ like in this spot we actually make fold some better hands like AQ, AK.
3. When we bet second time on river (we can bet there almost every time) we make fold his 66, 77, AK or AQ and we have got some extra chips from betting turn.
4. Sometime we have got there like JTs and we bet on turn to utilize our equity and sure we can sometime hit the river.
5. Because of this we can bet there our straights.
Because of these few reasons I think it is very +EV to bet in this situation every time turn, and most of the time (let us say 80 percent) river.
Thanks for your thoughts, after thinking more about your post I would agree there is some incentive to betting the turn and you lay out some good reasons for doing so. You're right that we will make some better hands fold, we also don't stand much risk of being check raised. In game I decided that I had enough show down value that it wasn't really necessary to bluff, but if we have the plan to barrel both the turn and the river then we give ourselves another way to win the pot besides hoping to show down the best hand on the river. I like the idea of balancing playing this hand sometimes by checking back on the turn, and sometimes with the plan of betting both turn and river depending on the opponent and situation just to keep our ranges more balanced.
Hi, @ 32 mins what bluffs do you have on T32 from flatting the button here my point being if you have only value should you be flatting more? I can't express this very well but feel it is a flat on the flop to keep our range wider and not just strong hands.
Also @36 min with the AQss for the bounty if you are considering calling the BB jam if we flat are we better to jam to stop him jamming the hands he will jam over our flat but won't call to our jam ( possibly 66-TT and AQ) or do we gain more from him jamming them and maybe wider. Obviously I am goin to run some numbers when I am not on my iPad but interested to see what you think with the bounty in the mix.
I enjoyed the video but hope you somehow keep us informed of the bounties in later videos as your decisions will obviously be effected by bounty sizes etc. which obviously don't show on hm2 or whatever you are using as a replayer.
Hey, so @ 32 minutes the hand that I have As and raise the flop I could also potentially be doing this with over cards such as QJs with a backdoor flush draw and other hands that have a lot of backdoor equity that I would often float with in position regardless but raising gives us the ability to win the pot in multiple ways on later streets, especially when considering how deep we are. I may also raise 4s-6s for value and information making it more difficult for him to realize his equity against a vulnerable hand. I do agree that it is important that I can have some bluffs and non nutted hands in my range for this play to make sense with As and I can think of quite a few hands I may want to bluff with that I would play similarly.
@36 minutes I think flatting with most my range is the right play, jamming just seems highly unnecessary and takes away the bbs ability to make a semi bluff raise or shove which would obviously put us in a tough spot with our particular hand but we should also be flatting with our nutted hands that we have no problem calling a shove from the bb with so I like to flat my particular hand for balance sake and given the tendencies of the bb calling if he does decide to shove doesn't seem like a very bad situation either honestly.
If you want to hear me talk more about bounties and how they effect calling ranges in all in situations watch the later parts of this series that will be released soon. I will go much more in depth as bounties increase and it becomes an even more important factor of play in the tournament.
Imho the AA on 32:00 is played and analyzed fairly naive. In a bounty tournament there should be less incentive to squeeze w marginal stuff once you cover him. An argument could be made though for flatting to keep BB involved. Don´t know if the added value of his bounty supercedes the loss of EV for not pushing our EQadvantage vs CO.
Postflop your argument for a raise seems faulty. Just because he is going to call worse does not mean that the EV of a raise is > EVcall.
Even if granted that he might be cbetting more or a lot more than is actually warranted our particular hand seems well suited as a call. I guess JJ could work better as raise. Would be nice to hear some argument as to why you want a raising range on this board at all.
Hi Joey, I get what your saying but I do also like to have a raising range for dry boards like this one especially when we are as deep as we are. I agree that As don't need much protection, and potentially raising Js makes more sense because there is some need for protection against overcards with that particular hand. I still stand behind my decision to raise some of the time on this flop with As, and against this particular opponent it seemed like a decent spot when we consider how deep we both are and the likelihood of him continuing with medium pairs, Tx and possibly some overcard type hands with backdoor equity. I also think that it is important for us to have a raising range on this board that includes non nutted hands as I touched on in an earlier post.
When we are as deep as we are and we have position against whats perceived to be a not very strong opponent we stand to be able to win some larger pots by raising on this flop with some hands that we would often float with like KJs with a backdoor flush draw and similar hands that will often improve on the turn. In my opinion most players aren't raising these flops often enough, and its good to mix in raises with hands that have reasonable equity when we are playing 100bbs deep or deeper instead of always floating these hands and giving up a fair amount of the time to a turn barrel when we don't improve.
Hey Hello, in the hand with AA because of the situation and dinamics of the table i think a 3bet is way better than just flatting for several reasons:
2.- co seems to have his 1st chance to steal the blinds so in a perspective he will do it very wide, for that reason we can come over the top very light, is not the case here but he or the guys in the blinds can really think about that then can easily come over the top because of that with a 4bet(specially bb), so is a good chance for co for a light 4bet i think
4.- seem to me that flatting here is kind of face up to a trapping hands(QQ-KK-AA) and medium pairs like 22-99, so what else will you flat here in this particular situation? 98s, 9Ts Jts QJs? A6-AJs are just the only hands for a flat here after a pair. or QJo KJo ATo? its seems tricky for me, i will be more tempted to flat call AA vs a or from middle position only that make our flatting range bigger
5.- with a 3bet i think we motivated a lot more to the BB and co 4bet light here as a big part of our 3bet hands are in the weak side of thehand chart as J9s 78s maybe some Axo , KJo QTo, A2-A5s
dont know i am really confusing with your flat here, its seems strong for me.
now in the flop i still dont see a reason to a raise, as he almost never connect there, we are just taking him out of his bluff that he will pbbly cbet twice, and we can make him fold hands as strong as 77-99 that he also pbbly if decided to cbet he will do it twice,
thxs for the explation of equity in the PSKO now seems a lot more clear to me when can i call or fold,
and in the AJo i am agree with Daladula comments, i think is very good strategy in general,(i usually played like you that is not bad also obbsly
i will go to see the next video,
thxs for the video you put very interesting hands is making me think a lot, that is what i need it =D
Hi Keir, thanks for taking the time to bring up these points. While I agree with you that 3 betting with AA in this spot should be our highest frequency play, I also believe that in order to balance our ranges more correctly we should be flatting with this hand at some points as well. I would say that my strategy would be 3 betting around 80% of the time in this spot and then flatting around 20%. Playing hands with a mixed and balanced approach makes it more difficult for opponents to exploit our tendencies, therefore we should be flatting with our strongest hands even in a spot like this with some frequency.
Regarding your point that flatting here seems to be an obvious trap to my opponents I would have to disagree and here is why. First, because this is a bounty tournament and we cover both the opener and the player in the BB who will likely defend given the odds he's being laid, this gives us incentive to flat a lot wider in this spot than usual. We will have position throughout and we could potentially have the opportunity to bust a player. My opponents realize this fact, and would correctly assume I would be flatting fairly wide here. I can flat here with a wider range as well (Suited connectors, broadway hands, small pairs, suited Ax) due to the fact that we are unlikely to be squeezed out of this hand preflop by a bluff by either the SB or BB because of stack sizes. If the SB squeezes as a bluff he will be pretty close to committed to calling the BB if he wakes up with a hand and shoves. The BB is relatively short stacked so he would be risking a large part of his stack if he did decide to squeeze as a bluff, and he is being given very favorable odds to see a flop so the incentive leans much more toward him flatting. Flatting with AA in this spot will allow us to play with a deceptively strong hand in position against 2 stacks that we covered in a bounty tournament where its essential to collect bounties.
It is also important to note that I will be 3 betting with the above mentioned hands (similar to the range you mentioned) that I would also flat with at a reasonable frequency to maintain a balanced strategy. Just because I didn't 3 bet AA in this particular instance doesn't mean that I am not capable of 3 betting a wide range in this spot, it simply just means I didn't choose to 3 bet this time.
I hope this clears up the questions you had. Once again I appreciate you taking the time to bring up all these points, and if you have any future questions feel free to post them.
Hi Jeremy, excuse my ignorance but I'll a little confused regards to the bounty situation. In Grayson's 320 super Ko vids he explains that you need to add 3000 chips (a full stack) to the pot (of someone you cover) even though half of the buy in goes to the bounty pool.
In your vid however you are saying that 20000 chips = $2000, therefore $500 is equal to 5000 chips, which makes sense. However applying This logic to Grayson's vid, you pay $300 for 3000 chips and half goes to bounty pool, therefore we should be adding 1500 chips to each pot in the super Ko situation?! A detailed response would be much appreciated. Thank you
Hi yoyo, ok so the first fact we need to consider is that there are different kinds of Bounty tournaments. The tournament Gray reviewed is a super knockout where each person's bounty is 50% of the total prize pool. In this case we would add half of the starting stack to the equation when figuring outs when deciding whether or not to make a call.
However, the tournament that I reviewed is a progressive super knockout tournament in which 50% of the buy in does go to the bounty pool but only 25% goes toward each player's immediate bounty at the start of the tournament and the other 25% goes toward creating a progressive bounty which will continue to grow as you knock more people out while the tournament progresses. For that reason we would only add 25% of the starting chips to the equation when deciding whether or not to call an all in if a person has the minimum bounty, however if the player's bounty is larger we would have to do a little more math based on the players accrued bounty.
Here's an example:
Let's say we have gotten to the later stages of this particular tournament where the buy in is $2000 and the starting stack is 20k. A player at our table has managed to increased their bounty from the minimum of $1000 where we get $500 immediately if we busted this player, to $5500 where we would now get $2750 if we bust them. Since we know that $500 worth of bounty is equivalent to 5000 chips, we can now determine how many extra chips to add to the pot when determining pot odds by the equation (adjusted bounty/ minimum bounty) or 2750/500= 5.5 which we then multiply by 5000 which is the amount of chips we determined is what the minimum bounty is worth, so 5.5x5000= 27500. We now know that we can 27,500 in chips to the pot odds we are already getting to figure out the adjusted pot odds which will allow us to make the correct mathematical call based on how we assume our exact hand does against the range of hands we expect our opponent to have.
I hope that answers your question, but if you would like further help feel free to dm me.
Hi Jeremy, regarding your statement when you say if this wasnt a bounty tournament you would still easily call AQhh in this situation (@33:30). With 23 BBs what do you see him shoving here? I see his range as being something like any pocket pair (even tho he is probably not shoving with AA-JJ but raising instead), AKoff/suited, AQoff/suited, maybe AJ or ATs.
To be honest I dont really see him shoving here with any other hand. Against this range we have 47% equity. Even if you add KQ to his range you would still only have 50% equity. Personally i wouldnt call with AhQh there if it wasnt a bounty tournament. What do you think?
Thank you for the videos, hope to hear from you soon
Bernardo
Hi MeBotelho, let me see if I can help here.
First of all we have to consider the range of hands our opponent would be shoving as you mentioned. Most players have both a raise to induce a shove range with this stack size as well as a pure shove range. Most of the players I play with aren't going to be open shoving 23bbs from middle or late position with hands like AQ or AK as they would prefer to raise and induce a shove instead with these type of hands due to their strength so we can discount these hands a fair amount from our opponents range. I would agree that small to medium pocket pairs do make up a large % of the range we'd expect our opponent to show up with, but we could also see them shoving some marginal suited Ax, some broadway hands and perhaps even some weaker suited connectors based on the opponent. If we include all these hands into our opponents range and strongly discount the AQ+ and Js+ then we find that we are very rarely dominated in this situation and calling with AQs is actually a +cEV play. For example if we feel our opponents would shove a range that includes A3s-A8s, 2s-Ts, KJo,KQo, AJo, ATo, and maybe 9Ts as one suited connector combo we actually have 60% equity so this is certainly a winning call. This may seem like a bit loose of a shoving range but its not too far off from most players actual range of shoving approximately 20bbs.
Thanks for the question, hope that helps explain things a bit clearer.
Thanks for your reply Jeremy. That's exactly what I thought. So you're saying gray's initial response to add 3000 chips to the pot is wrong for a player they cover? I always thought 1500 chips should be added instead of 3000 in a super KO tourney..
Also for the $162 bounty builder for example, (5k starting chips and $37.50 immediate initial bounty) $37.50 would equal 1250 chips right?
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