yeah i was curious about this as well. 86s is well outside of a top 15% range
Raphael Cerpedes11 years, 4 months agoMy 3-bet % SBvsBTN depends a lot on who is the BTN and can go anywhere from like 12% to over 40% vs some people. 86s is outside of a top 15% range but when going roughly 20% it's included since I still mostly fold stuff like JTo QTo 22 A9o and similar hands and prefer to have more small suited connectors for board coverage/deception. I could be convinced this is not the right approach though.
AJ hand seems fine. the 3bet is a little questionable and depends on his specific tendencies, but the rest of the decisions seem automatic given that 3bet. he is leggo instructor apotheosis fwiw
no offense but you rambled on way too long here, like how people used to never flat 3bets oop. ofc we know it's ok to flat 3bets oop now. that didn't leave you much time to talk about hands which is what the people want!
Often, it is better to look into and discuss hands that were misplayed. Actually, his second hand, AJ was not really misplayed much. I think calling 4b would be a mistake if they were 100bb, but they were deeper and the call is ok. IN fact, his opponent's 4b with TT is way worse. It is a difficult hand to play oop 150 bb vs aggressive player.
@Dauntless, please be more specific about how the AJo was badly played. The 86s I perfectly know was not well played but I thought it would still be interesting to see a very good exploitative call by the opponent which I do not expect very many regulars to be capable of making.
@Vladimir, I think I would still call the 4-bet wAJo vs this sizing even if we were only 100bb deep. I tend to call more 4-bets than your average regular and will make some bad peels sometimes but I believe many people fold way too much vs small 4-bets sizing and are not aware of it.
I agree the vid is sub par but it's still good learning material overall.. 86s hand prob c-bet then c/f on turn .
and Apotheosis is the leggo coach Apotheosis you're right ~ he prob knows quite some stuffs about coaching.
Also funny that Raph is always telling a story around the cards. he is more of a feel player I guess than a technical player that's why he is turning around a bit
I found Raphael's discussion and analysis of both hands interesting. He did note that his turn bet with the 86s hand was bad.
Like Raphael I am also trying to never flat a button opener's raise from the SB mostly due to how much easier and simpler it is to play a 3bet or fold strategy. However, having only a 15% linear range against a button's min raise seems too tight. I am using something more in the 20% to 25% range against a min raise and going a little tighter against larger opens. I would be interested in hearing what others think is optimal.
P.S. 86 suited doesn't get included into a linear range for me until I get closer to 33% of all possible hands.
Raphael Cerpedes11 years, 4 months ago3-bet % will depend a lot on how is the BTN playing that spot, and I probably go over 20% wide on average but I disagree that you have to go 33% wide before including 86s, it will come a lot sooner than that imo. I guess we rank hands differently.
I think that Apotheo expoiltatively 4bets very few bluff combos in this spot himself and therefore thinks that flating the 4b and flop cbet vs. him is bad.
Raphael Cerpedes11 years, 4 months agoYou seem to have some strong reads here and you may very well be right. But having played only a few hundred hands with that opponent I was going in blind (which makes 3-betting questionable in the first place) and pictured him as a random regular in the field who would 4-bet bluff more than enough for me to make this call facing this sizing.
Im curious as to why you think he would exploitatively 4-bet bluff very little here? On the contrary against a random regular, which I probably was from his point of view, I think its explitatively best to 4-bet bluff a little too much since many regs dont call nearly enough 4-bets.
I have no read based on my history with Apotheo, I'm just making assumptions based on what he told you afterwards. I mean, if he's somewhat balanced when he takes these actions I just can't imagine your calls of his 4bet and flop cbet being bad.
As for your choice of 3betting AJ pre-flop, I think that 3betting the off-suite combos and just flatting the suited ones is a really good strategy. (not sure if you would haved just called if suited or not; but I would)
I agree with everything you said and honestly, I like how you played the hand and not much how Apotheo did.
Not enough content, 2 hands and not amazingly interesting or anything, just my thoughts :). Liked your vids so far but 2 tabling reviews also seem a little slow, maybe reviewing 4 tables of zoom next time?
You say you flat 4bets more than most regulars, I've been playing a (mostly) 5b or fold strategy at 100bb but am starting to rethink this. The guys at the top tend to flat tons of 4bets with random suited stuff and also some of the bottom of their value 3bets, like AQ, JJ etc to make up for this. Do you also play similar to this? I got berated in chat today by a HSNL reg when I 5b jammed AQo bb vs co.
Also, because you defend so much looser, would you mind sharing your bb/100 from the bb?
Im not sure why when talking strategies vs 4-bets people always only mention stack size as a decision factor when the direct odds you're getting ie the 4-bet sizing you're facing is far more important. Its easy to see that a 5-bet or fold strategy vs 4-bets cannot be correct since the opponent can just cib 4-bet a lot. So it means that when the 4-bet size is getting smaller and smaller we should be willing to call with more and more hands.
Yes I tend to approach many 4-bet spots the way you describe, plus throwing in some AA,KK slowplays every once in a while.
3-bet and 5-bet AQo BBvsCO is almost certainly incorrect unless you make an exploitative adjustment vs a CO who opens way too wide or has bad frequencies vs 3-bets. Both just calling the raise or 3-bet and calling the 4-bet are very probably better than 3-bet 5-bet vs strong opponents.
I have no idea whats my bb/100 from the bb or any other position, or even what it should look like and what other regulars are averaging. Maybe thats something I should pay more attention to.
I have no idea whats my bb/100 from the bb or any other position, or even what it should look like and what other regulars are averaging. Maybe that's something I should pay more attention to.
Really? That seems like a leak. Not hating or anything, just seems like a pretty standard thing to look at (positional stats) and an easy way to spot any obvious leaks.
Im not sure why when talking strategies vs 4-bets people always only mention stack size as a decision factor when the direct odds you're getting ie the 4-bet sizing you're facing is far more important
The way I see it, you have to watch direct odds and compare to your equity vs vilain's 4-bet range but also (and it's maybe the more important and tricky part) to estimate how much of your equity you will realise post-flop. I am not an expert by any mean to work on it .... But I think stack size is a factor (among others as position, initiative, ranges,...). I mean having implied (or reverse implied odds) will impact on the % of equity we will realize on average.
AJ is fine. Seems that this Leggo coach is stuck in 2010. By now he shoul realize, that good regs are not folding any of their 3 betting range to such a small 4 bet while IP and 165bb deep. Wp Rapf
I thought it was good discussion about the hands and history of the the game was interesting.....But try to pick up the pace a bit. Maybe outline your points that you want to talk about in the hands next time. You might be able to do as many as 10 hands in a video if you are more organized next time....Overall thought the video had some great content.
I agree that the AJ hand there weren't many decisions to be made. His sizings kind of just priced you in at every point and you obviously shove the river when you make the nuts. What would your plan be on some other rivers if he shoved? And I assume if checked to on rivers you are shoving for value on most blanks?
Raphael Cerpedes11 years, 4 months agoOnce I turn a J I probably end up calling down most rivers and yes I would definitely valueshove any blank if checked to. For sure there will be some very high variance river spots and ill end up getting stacked quite a bit by his overpairs but the only way to avoid this is to just not 3-bet preflop.
Enjoyed the video, the 86s hand had good commentary. Ralph, can you expand on the AQ hand mentioned in the comments where he got berated for 3b/5b shoving on the CO?
Going 3b/5b wAQo BBvsCO with no antes is most probably just not very good. AQo is actually a slight underdog to most reasonnable 4-betting ranges from the CO and quite a big underdog to any range that calls your 5bet shove. So if 3b/5b is not good it makes sense to take another line, either just calling preflop or 3-betting to just call a 4-bet vs most sizings.
Then again many regs open too wide from the CO or have bad frequencies when facing a 3-bet so going 3b/5b wAQo becomes an exploitive adjustment.
1) I very much liked your first 2 videos, and I was impressed how you managed to not go off to to many long ended tangents. This vid I felt like there were too many boring tangents.
2) In regards to the 68s hand, personally I don't CB OTF, not saying its bad. But even if it is immediately profitable, I think the probability of being able to bluff later in hand times the EV of bluffing later when we reach that decision node(OTT or OTR) is going to be higher then a flop CB. Yes we do have more nutty hands in our range and hence have a high degree of polarization, but equity wise OTF its going to be pretty close to 50/50(depending on what betting and 3B flatting ranges we use, I would suspect he will have slightly better equity given we are 3Bing was wide as 86s) also villian as position on a board were it is of relatively high value.
3)The 86 hand and value river shoving range OTR. If you think shoving TT and K9 OTR is going to get called more than 50% of the time( we are out of position, that only holds true when we are IP value shoving), this does not mean we should not value shove. We need to account for the opportunity cost of getting shoved on(when we have a bluff catcher and we check and get jammed into we realize EV0, assuming villain is balanced or too value heavy) The theoretical upper limit of shoving OOP should be [1-(B/(B+P)] i.e 1-[295/(295+415)]= ~.59, so our value cutting frequency should lie somewhere between .5 and .59, depending on how often villain jams into us when we check and we effectively loose the pot.
4)Glad to hear more about Apotheosis. Ive been looking for coaching, I know he is a Lego coach and one of my poker friends, who I respect a lot has told me if I want a good coach I should get him, mainly because he is open to knew ideas and very skilled. Although I have not watched his vids yet because i don't have a lego membership, I wont even bother signing up now. Thanks for the saved investment. Him berating you and trying to 'educate' you makes me think A) he is a mental game fish B)the types of things he was berating you over indicate he it is unlikely he is open to knew ideas(although I assume he was tilted) 3Betting and the AJ and calling the 4B I dont think anyone can say with certainty what is correct there. Personally Im definitely not folding when 4B, but im usually not 3Betting either(that's not to say its wrong) and you also have more information than I do.
5) I think topkat5757 berates everyone online. Ive railed him once against giggy and I observed it. I played with him at a live tournament a couple of months ago, he seamed quite nice and he didn't berate anyone -_-.
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u sain you have linear 3betting range in SBvBTN. And still u 3bet 86s? How much u 3bet?
yeah i was curious about this as well. 86s is well outside of a top 15% range
86s is outside of a top 15% range but when going roughly 20% it's included since I still mostly fold stuff like JTo QTo 22 A9o and similar hands and prefer to have more small suited connectors for board coverage/deception. I could be convinced this is not the right approach though.
AJ hand seems fine. the 3bet is a little questionable and depends on his specific tendencies, but the rest of the decisions seem automatic given that 3bet. he is leggo instructor apotheosis fwiw
no offense but you rambled on way too long here, like how people used to never flat 3bets oop. ofc we know it's ok to flat 3bets oop now. that didn't leave you much time to talk about hands which is what the people want!
it took 41mins to see two bad played hands, without any good analyze.. -p
Often, it is better to look into and discuss hands that were misplayed. Actually, his second hand, AJ was not really misplayed much. I think calling 4b would be a mistake if they were 100bb, but they were deeper and the call is ok. IN fact, his opponent's 4b with TT is way worse. It is a difficult hand to play oop 150 bb vs aggressive player.
@Dauntless, please be more specific about how the AJo was badly played. The 86s I perfectly know was not well played but I thought it would still be interesting to see a very good exploitative call by the opponent which I do not expect very many regulars to be capable of making.
@Vladimir, I think I would still call the 4-bet wAJo vs this sizing even if we were only 100bb deep. I tend to call more 4-bets than your average regular and will make some bad peels sometimes but I believe many people fold way too much vs small 4-bets sizing and are not aware of it.
I agree the vid is sub par but it's still good learning material overall.. 86s hand prob c-bet then c/f on turn .
and Apotheosis is the leggo coach Apotheosis you're right ~ he prob knows quite some stuffs about coaching.
Also funny that Raph is always telling a story around the cards. he is more of a feel player I guess than a technical player that's why he is turning around a bit
I found Raphael's discussion and analysis of both hands interesting. He did note that his turn bet with the 86s hand was bad.
Like Raphael I am also trying to never flat a button opener's raise from the SB mostly due to how much easier and simpler it is to play a 3bet or fold strategy. However, having only a 15% linear range against a button's min raise seems too tight. I am using something more in the 20% to 25% range against a min raise and going a little tighter against larger opens. I would be interested in hearing what others think is optimal.
P.S. 86 suited doesn't get included into a linear range for me until I get closer to 33% of all possible hands.
Apparently people didnt like this video much, this was more of standalone anyways, so Ill be back reviewing full sessions for next time.
Keep commenting and criticizing, Ill take it into consideration for future content.
I think that Apotheo expoiltatively 4bets very few bluff combos in this spot himself and therefore thinks that flating the 4b and flop cbet vs. him is bad.
Im curious as to why you think he would exploitatively 4-bet bluff very little here? On the contrary against a random regular, which I probably was from his point of view, I think its explitatively best to 4-bet bluff a little too much since many regs dont call nearly enough 4-bets.
I have no read based on my history with Apotheo, I'm just making assumptions based on what he told you afterwards. I mean, if he's somewhat balanced when he takes these actions I just can't imagine your calls of his 4bet and flop cbet being bad.
As for your choice of 3betting AJ pre-flop, I think that 3betting the off-suite combos and just flatting the suited ones is a really good strategy. (not sure if you would haved just called if suited or not; but I would)
I agree with everything you said and honestly, I like how you played the hand and not much how Apotheo did.
Not enough content, 2 hands and not amazingly interesting or anything, just my thoughts :). Liked your vids so far but 2 tabling reviews also seem a little slow, maybe reviewing 4 tables of zoom next time?
You say you flat 4bets more than most regulars, I've been playing a (mostly) 5b or fold strategy at 100bb but am starting to rethink this. The guys at the top tend to flat tons of 4bets with random suited stuff and also some of the bottom of their value 3bets, like AQ, JJ etc to make up for this. Do you also play similar to this? I got berated in chat today by a HSNL reg when I 5b jammed AQo bb vs co.
Also, because you defend so much looser, would you mind sharing your bb/100 from the bb?
Thanks :)
Im not sure why when talking strategies vs 4-bets people always only mention stack size as a decision factor when the direct odds you're getting ie the 4-bet sizing you're facing is far more important. Its easy to see that a 5-bet or fold strategy vs 4-bets cannot be correct since the opponent can just cib 4-bet a lot. So it means that when the 4-bet size is getting smaller and smaller we should be willing to call with more and more hands.
Yes I tend to approach many 4-bet spots the way you describe, plus throwing in some AA,KK slowplays every once in a while.
3-bet and 5-bet AQo BBvsCO is almost certainly incorrect unless you make an exploitative adjustment vs a CO who opens way too wide or has bad frequencies vs 3-bets. Both just calling the raise or 3-bet and calling the 4-bet are very probably better than 3-bet 5-bet vs strong opponents.
I have no idea whats my bb/100 from the bb or any other position, or even what it should look like and what other regulars are averaging. Maybe thats something I should pay more attention to.
I have no idea whats my bb/100 from the bb or any other position, or even what it should look like and what other regulars are averaging. Maybe that's something I should pay more attention to.
Really? That seems like a leak. Not hating or anything, just seems like a pretty standard thing to look at (positional stats) and an easy way to spot any obvious leaks.
The way I see it, you have to watch direct odds and compare to your equity vs vilain's 4-bet range but also (and it's maybe the more important and tricky part) to estimate how much of your equity you will realise post-flop. I am not an expert by any mean to work on it .... But I think stack size is a factor (among others as position, initiative, ranges,...). I mean having implied (or reverse implied odds) will impact on the % of equity we will realize on average.
AJ is fine. Seems that this Leggo coach is stuck in 2010. By now he shoul realize, that good regs are not folding any of their 3 betting range to such a small 4 bet while IP and 165bb deep. Wp Rapf
I thought it was good discussion about the hands and history of the the game was interesting.....But try to pick up the pace a bit. Maybe outline your points that you want to talk about in the hands next time. You might be able to do as many as 10 hands in a video if you are more organized next time....Overall thought the video had some great content.
Yeah I agree with you, soooo much gibberish between the interesting stuff!
I agree that the AJ hand there weren't many decisions to be made. His sizings kind of just priced you in at every point and you obviously shove the river when you make the nuts. What would your plan be on some other rivers if he shoved? And I assume if checked to on rivers you are shoving for value on most blanks?
I liked the review of the 2 hands, but prefer the HH vids that cover more hands and situations in 40min.
Enjoyed the video, the 86s hand had good commentary. Ralph, can you expand on the AQ hand mentioned in the comments where he got berated for 3b/5b shoving on the CO?
Going 3b/5b wAQo BBvsCO with no antes is most probably just not very good. AQo is actually a slight underdog to most reasonnable 4-betting ranges from the CO and quite a big underdog to any range that calls your 5bet shove. So if 3b/5b is not good it makes sense to take another line, either just calling preflop or 3-betting to just call a 4-bet vs most sizings.
Then again many regs open too wide from the CO or have bad frequencies when facing a 3-bet so going 3b/5b wAQo becomes an exploitive adjustment.
thanks for the video, but try to make it more interesting...
You could say all these things in 10-15 minutes..
1) I very much liked your first 2 videos, and I was impressed how you managed to not go off to to many long ended tangents. This vid I felt like there were too many boring tangents.
2) In regards to the 68s hand, personally I don't CB OTF, not saying its bad. But even if it is immediately profitable, I think the probability of being able to bluff later in hand times the EV of bluffing later when we reach that decision node(OTT or OTR) is going to be higher then a flop CB. Yes we do have more nutty hands in our range and hence have a high degree of polarization, but equity wise OTF its going to be pretty close to 50/50(depending on what betting and 3B flatting ranges we use, I would suspect he will have slightly better equity given we are 3Bing was wide as 86s) also villian as position on a board were it is of relatively high value.
3)The 86 hand and value river shoving range OTR. If you think shoving TT and K9 OTR is going to get called more than 50% of the time( we are out of position, that only holds true when we are IP value shoving), this does not mean we should not value shove. We need to account for the opportunity cost of getting shoved on(when we have a bluff catcher and we check and get jammed into we realize EV0, assuming villain is balanced or too value heavy) The theoretical upper limit of shoving OOP should be [1-(B/(B+P)] i.e 1-[295/(295+415)]= ~.59, so our value cutting frequency should lie somewhere between .5 and .59, depending on how often villain jams into us when we check and we effectively loose the pot.
4)Glad to hear more about Apotheosis. Ive been looking for coaching, I know he is a Lego coach and one of my poker friends, who I respect a lot has told me if I want a good coach I should get him, mainly because he is open to knew ideas and very skilled. Although I have not watched his vids yet because i don't have a lego membership, I wont even bother signing up now. Thanks for the saved investment. Him berating you and trying to 'educate' you makes me think A) he is a mental game fish B)the types of things he was berating you over indicate he it is unlikely he is open to knew ideas(although I assume he was tilted) 3Betting and the AJ and calling the 4B I dont think anyone can say with certainty what is correct there. Personally Im definitely not folding when 4B, but im usually not 3Betting either(that's not to say its wrong) and you also have more information than I do.
5) I think topkat5757 berates everyone online. Ive railed him once against giggy and I observed it. I played with him at a live tournament a couple of months ago, he seamed quite nice and he didn't berate anyone -_-.
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