Thanks buddy! The more I think about the hand, the less I like it. The most likely flushes I have here are Axcc followed by some straight flush draws that check/called the turn. This implies that any AcXo is fist pump call from the villains perspective. Luckily for me, a decent subsection of AcXo will be fired on the flop. However, once we consider a reasonable section of his one pair hands as +EV calls, the value of my raise against a good strategy goes down significantly.
And because my raise is such small value automatically, it seems foolish to overbluff by a significant margin. I'll try to count combos and bluff an appropriate number to zero his non club hands.
Around 3 min you flat KT from the sb vs Aggro Santos.
How do you construct your flatting range there ?
I vaguely remember you saying that you play a somewhat mixed strategy flatting some % of hands that are profitable from the larger samples of your database.Not sure if it was you or Sauce, so sorry if i`m mistaken.
Also there was a great discussion on this topic on your first video.
Quote from hotsandwich :
A good flatting range is basiclly all the hands that when applied to
game theory really dont make much sense to 3 bet bluff against
villians continuing range. 55-99, 910s-KJ some A10o, AJo and some
middle suited aces. And of course its ok to bluff with these hands
but generally i do it with hands that arent thrilled to call a 4 bet
with and suck to 5 bet jam with the assumption villian can 4 bet
bluff. Lets face it, flatting 4 bets oop with J10s KQ, AJ etc is a
huge leak and one that i think far too many instructors are doing,
flatting preflop against a reg with good 4 betting frequencies is the
only option with these trouble hands. And of course if the reg is 4
betting too much (which he will be after you adjust your sb ranges it
becomes profitable to keep nearly the same 3 bet % but add hands like
77-99 to jam over that 4 bet.
What about being squeezed? Keep a tight range, snowie folds a ton of
offsuit broadways in the sb, and balance with AK and AA in game flow.
Personally, my sb flatting range is constructed to backrasie for value
and as a bluff and to call most squeezes. and fyi A great backraise
bluff hand is one heavy in blockers or mid pairs
This comment is a little awkward to respond to because I have to steer away from talking about how my full ranges are constructed. Otherwise, people playing me would have an excellent idea about how my range is constructed in most spots and I'd cease to be an effective poker player.
However here is what I can say about flatting ranges. You need to consider your equity realization when you reach the flop and you need to figure out how often you are getting squeeze (and if you are getting squeeze, can you win some of the raise back?). Then you take this EV and compare it to the EV of 3-betting. Choose whichever one is greater. This method is far more surefire than rules of thumb. Though unfortunately implementation is time consuming.
As a poker pro who started in 2005, I've had to assume that my winrate would fall every year. Poker is a game where the better players take the worse players money. That means that every year the worst subsection of pros go broke. The next year's group of pros players is better than last year's group. And a fixed strategy's winrate falls every year until eventually it goes negative. Unless you innovate in this game, you die. And unless the spread between your innovation and your oppositions remains the same, your winrate falls.
And yes, I have to assume that there is some fall in win rate due to the videos, but variance is too high to prove it statistically. Anecdotally, it feels like some of the lines I use in the videos are less effective than they once were, but I have no proof. Even if I did have proof of a lower winrate, it could be attributed to the above argument.
what you say about tournament players for that river checkraise spot around 6.:45 is just not true. If anything they are too weak in the sense that they dont checkraise often enough there, seldomly as a bluff and definitely not thinner than a flush for value. Not sure where that impression of yours comes from, but im an MTT player and thats just not their standard behaviour and ranges on that river.
I am aware that alot of cashgame players think like this. Found that always a bit ingorant and derogatory tbh. Simple fact is that tournaments and cashgames require different skillsets and mindsets. The whole evaluation of spots becomes different when you are playing a tournament, first of all average ranges are different but also stack utility risk and risk reward will make tournament players have to deviate alot in their decision making to the decisions of cashgame players. This whole thinking of cashgames being so much more skillful is just focusing on one aspect, that is stack depth and postflop play, whereas in tournaments situations can become just as complex, but because of different factors. Yea a tournament player will not play cashgames as well as a cashgame player. But a cashgame player will also play not as well in tournaments as a tournament player, even if they might think so (because they think its a simpler game).
Sorry but ive just heard this stereotype coming from cashgame players so often by now that im really getting tired of it. I dont see much of a difference in principle there to a religious fanatic claiming his religion is the best and all the others are fools for believing in a different religion. I dont even see why there is the need for comparison.
But anyways, not that i have to like your views to get value out of your videos. But its not only cashgame players paying for this site.
I'm so sorry. The comment was never meant to offend you. Tournament poker in some respects is much more difficult than cash game poker. The fact that 1 chip does not equal to 1 dollar makes every decision more difficult. I can't plug my hands into an equity calculator and derive the correct results. The variance is skewed which makes it harder for a skilled player to profit. I have a lot of respect for good tournament players.
My comment stems from the fact that you are more likely to win tournaments if you have a higher standard deviation in your game. And to achieve a higher standard deviation, you need to play loose aggressive poker. So a lot of the original (think 2005-2008) big tournament players were maniacs. That doesn't hold true anymore. Most successful tournament pros are smart, thoughtful and hardworking with an excellent grasp of ICM.
I'd like to apologize again. It was never my intention to offend or denigrate tournament poker.
no problem. My rant wasnt even really directed towards you but more to this whole perception in general, I just happened to finally vent here because i just really dont like the whole comparison at all. Im sorry for taking this a bit out of proportion here as well
Also Tyler, If villain knows that we shove jacks 100% on the turn should he adjust his turn betting range in some way? I can see how his river range will gain ev but I cant figure out if he should adjust his turn range.
As an adjustment, he'd check his flush draws, because we'd essentially be playing raise/fold on the turn. As to shoving or raising flop/furn, it feels a little splashy. He doesn't really stack worse that often maybe TT or random 8xs and we are crushed by AA-QQ (which he has @ 100% frequency). Certainly as he becomes splashier raising becomes better. Squeezing an UTG + CO cold-call, he needs a relatively tight range, so its hard for JJ to be a big favorite on the turn to a turn call shove range.
Against his actual strategy, which seemed to be fire two with broadways, give up unimproved on river. Shoving the turn would be fine. We're going to be ahead so often that we can "pseudo" shove for value.
15 : 30
I guess it's hard to call river without a hud .
Would you fold to a river bet against 5 % squeeze ?
What to do against shove if river a non diamond king or queen ?
Thanks in advance for answer
best of luck in your games
Unfortunately call. Otherwise I'm overfolding the river. I need to call some one pair hands here to keep from being exploited. Its a hand that its going to very close to zero 0EV on any river against his betting range. Sometimes you have to bluff catch :).
What do you think about his decision to not bet KK on the river there? You mention that he might be worried about a x/r on the turn, but after no turn x/r, your river x/r value range is probably only full houses?
Honestly, the hand is pretty screwy. He has a 5 or 86 here less than 10% of the time on the river. So if he's checking KK here, He's literally betting maybe 15% of the time on this board. This makes a very strong exploitative argument for me to start c/c some flush draws and 5s on the turn and leading the river or alternatively c/c the turn.
That being said, KK is probably a very close value bet given my distribution in this situation, so his check is probably a good exploit.
Loading 25 Comments...
Hey Tyler, great video.
4:00 what are your flushes that you get to this river ? are you bluffing [K-J]Tc with 100% frequency OTR ?
Thanks man :)
Hi Raphael,
Thanks buddy! The more I think about the hand, the less I like it. The most likely flushes I have here are Axcc followed by some straight flush draws that check/called the turn. This implies that any AcXo is fist pump call from the villains perspective. Luckily for me, a decent subsection of AcXo will be fired on the flop. However, once we consider a reasonable section of his one pair hands as +EV calls, the value of my raise against a good strategy goes down significantly.
And because my raise is such small value automatically, it seems foolish to overbluff by a significant margin. I'll try to count combos and bluff an appropriate number to zero his non club hands.
Loved the vid!
Thanks Mason!
Hi Tyler, nice video.
Around 3 min you flat KT from the sb vs Aggro Santos.
How do you construct your flatting range there ?
I vaguely remember you saying that you play a somewhat mixed strategy flatting some % of hands that are profitable from the larger samples of your database.Not sure if it was you or Sauce, so sorry if i`m mistaken.
Also there was a great discussion on this topic on your first video.
Quote from hotsandwich :
Would you agree with this ?
This comment is a little awkward to respond to because I have to steer away from talking about how my full ranges are constructed. Otherwise, people playing me would have an excellent idea about how my range is constructed in most spots and I'd cease to be an effective poker player.
However here is what I can say about flatting ranges. You need to consider your equity realization when you reach the flop and you need to figure out how often you are getting squeeze (and if you are getting squeeze, can you win some of the raise back?). Then you take this EV and compare it to the EV of 3-betting. Choose whichever one is greater. This method is far more surefire than rules of thumb. Though unfortunately implementation is time consuming.
Thanks, of course i was just asking for some pointers not expecting you to go in depth about your own ranges and methods.
No problem, its a great question and is one of the things that separates marginal winners from big winners.
ty Tyler
Glad you enjoyed it, Tony!
You make awsome videos Tyler. I have one question for you: Has your winrate taken any damage because you started to produce pokervideos?
Thank you sir!
As a poker pro who started in 2005, I've had to assume that my winrate would fall every year. Poker is a game where the better players take the worse players money. That means that every year the worst subsection of pros go broke. The next year's group of pros players is better than last year's group. And a fixed strategy's winrate falls every year until eventually it goes negative. Unless you innovate in this game, you die. And unless the spread between your innovation and your oppositions remains the same, your winrate falls.
And yes, I have to assume that there is some fall in win rate due to the videos, but variance is too high to prove it statistically. Anecdotally, it feels like some of the lines I use in the videos are less effective than they once were, but I have no proof. Even if I did have proof of a lower winrate, it could be attributed to the above argument.
what you say about tournament players for that river checkraise spot around 6.:45 is just not true. If anything they are too weak in the sense that they dont checkraise often enough there, seldomly as a bluff and definitely not thinner than a flush for value. Not sure where that impression of yours comes from, but im an MTT player and thats just not their standard behaviour and ranges on that river.
Hi Linc,
A little cash game player bias, I just regard all tournament players as stack happy donkies, lol. Its probably not based in fact anymore. :P
I am aware that alot of cashgame players think like this. Found that always a bit ingorant and derogatory tbh. Simple fact is that tournaments and cashgames require different skillsets and mindsets. The whole evaluation of spots becomes different when you are playing a tournament, first of all average ranges are different but also stack utility risk and risk reward will make tournament players have to deviate alot in their decision making to the decisions of cashgame players. This whole thinking of cashgames being so much more skillful is just focusing on one aspect, that is stack depth and postflop play, whereas in tournaments situations can become just as complex, but because of different factors. Yea a tournament player will not play cashgames as well as a cashgame player. But a cashgame player will also play not as well in tournaments as a tournament player, even if they might think so (because they think its a simpler game).
Sorry but ive just heard this stereotype coming from cashgame players so often by now that im really getting tired of it. I dont see much of a difference in principle there to a religious fanatic claiming his religion is the best and all the others are fools for believing in a different religion. I dont even see why there is the need for comparison.
But anyways, not that i have to like your views to get value out of your videos. But its not only cashgame players paying for this site.
Hey Linc,
I'm so sorry. The comment was never meant to offend you. Tournament poker in some respects is much more difficult than cash game poker. The fact that 1 chip does not equal to 1 dollar makes every decision more difficult. I can't plug my hands into an equity calculator and derive the correct results. The variance is skewed which makes it harder for a skilled player to profit. I have a lot of respect for good tournament players.
My comment stems from the fact that you are more likely to win tournaments if you have a higher standard deviation in your game. And to achieve a higher standard deviation, you need to play loose aggressive poker. So a lot of the original (think 2005-2008) big tournament players were maniacs. That doesn't hold true anymore. Most successful tournament pros are smart, thoughtful and hardworking with an excellent grasp of ICM.
I'd like to apologize again. It was never my intention to offend or denigrate tournament poker.
no problem. My rant wasnt even really directed towards you but more to this whole perception in general, I just happened to finally vent here because i just really dont like the whole comparison at all. Im sorry for taking this a bit out of proportion here as well
lololol
Nice vid Tyler.
@15:00 what do you think about raising flop with JJ or jamming turn?
Also Tyler, If villain knows that we shove jacks 100% on the turn should he adjust his turn betting range in some way? I can see how his river range will gain ev but I cant figure out if he should adjust his turn range.
As an adjustment, he'd check his flush draws, because we'd essentially be playing raise/fold on the turn. As to shoving or raising flop/furn, it feels a little splashy. He doesn't really stack worse that often maybe TT or random 8xs and we are crushed by AA-QQ (which he has @ 100% frequency). Certainly as he becomes splashier raising becomes better. Squeezing an UTG + CO cold-call, he needs a relatively tight range, so its hard for JJ to be a big favorite on the turn to a turn call shove range.
Against his actual strategy, which seemed to be fire two with broadways, give up unimproved on river. Shoving the turn would be fine. We're going to be ahead so often that we can "pseudo" shove for value.
15 : 30
I guess it's hard to call river without a hud .
Would you fold to a river bet against 5 % squeeze ?
What to do against shove if river a non diamond king or queen ?
Thanks in advance for answer
best of luck in your games
Unfortunately call. Otherwise I'm overfolding the river. I need to call some one pair hands here to keep from being exploited. Its a hand that its going to very close to zero 0EV on any river against his betting range. Sometimes you have to bluff catch :).
22:45
What do you think about his decision to not bet KK on the river there? You mention that he might be worried about a x/r on the turn, but after no turn x/r, your river x/r value range is probably only full houses?
Thanks
Honestly, the hand is pretty screwy. He has a 5 or 86 here less than 10% of the time on the river. So if he's checking KK here, He's literally betting maybe 15% of the time on this board. This makes a very strong exploitative argument for me to start c/c some flush draws and 5s on the turn and leading the river or alternatively c/c the turn.
That being said, KK is probably a very close value bet given my distribution in this situation, so his check is probably a good exploit.
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