2 Table Mid Stakes 6-Max NLHE Live Session (part 1)
Posted by Sauce123
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3:05 Jc9 on Qc4c2d
Is 35 into 40 your default sizing on this flop texture or are you playing a few different sizings or are you sort of looking at using whatever sizing you think is the highest EV in a vacuum for your specific combo? I feel like I see a wide range of bet sizings from good regs on this texture.
I'd probably bet 30% pot and then around 85% pot here. I'm not sure if that's EV maximizing for the situation though.
Any particular reason for not reloading on tables?
not really
Ben, kind of a weird video. Did you not auto-reload on purpose? You played with about 30BB on left table for most of first half and 30BB on right table for second half.
23:30 AKhh on KQ2ssh BTN v SB
You choose ~9 into 23 and say this is a sizing you could bet with range because of the asymmetries in the SB's relatively defined range. Are you implying that you think betting with 100% frequency on this flop is the highest EV play for ever hand in our range? It seems like we clearly have a subset of hands that gain more by checking back the flop. If this is true then we obviously need to not bet all of our air on the flop so that our delayed turn and river bets are balanced. Overall it seems like having a high flop cbet frequency will be good for BTN given his very significant relative nut frequency on this texture. I'm just curious how we should go about balancing all of our ranges.
I'm going to discuss this question in my next video using solver.
Haha, no one wants to sit on the right side of Sauce!
Can we get a guitar solo in the next video from whomever is playing in the background. Reign in blood by Slayer would be fabulous.
love your videos but this one tilted the heck outa me. really wanted to watch/learn 100bb+ play and not this 30bb stuff.
Nice vid, shortstack play was interesting.
One thing that struck me in this video and in the one where you analyze the hand of redbaron and kanu is that you say a good RFI range from SB is around 65%. It seems a very hard to defend range against 3bets from BB and puts SB in many difficult and marginal spots.
Would you still recommend this SB opening range to a player that's not necessarily at nosebleed stakes skill level or perhaps it's easier to play a 40% open or limping/mixed strategy?
40% is way too tight. As low as 55% is fine though. It's more difficult to play a mixed strategy or limping strategy, so I'd recommend playing raise/fold to begin with. It's very likely true that a mixed limping/raising strategy is highest EV.
This was a really good question. I went to my flopzilla to see my RFI in the SB at 1/2 and 2/4 and it's exactly 65%. Ironically enough. I feel like it works well out of the SB. Glad sauce approves!
To add on to sauces point: when you incorporate a limping/raising strategy, it is much tougher to know where you're at in the hand in terms of ranges and even harder to make sure certain parts of your range aren't weak. Having a limping/raising strategy is definitely something that you would really have to work on off the tables to get right. Also, if you are not playing nosebleeds and are playing 2/4 and below, I'd certainly say that just going raise only out of the small blind would be easier and more effective vs. the population who is likely still folding too much to steal. Also rake is a consideration. At 2/5 zoom with a table full of solid players on stars this probably changes and plays like limp/raise out of the SB become more effective as players defend wider. What I'm trying to say, long winded, is that it's very complicated to implement limp/raise strategy effectively. Hope this makes sense.
Disliked the fact that the video was 30bb, also I feel like 2 normal tables is a bit too slowpaced, would rather see something like 4 normal tables or 2-3 zoom!
Thanks for the videos Sauce.
@ 25:30 - We c-bet 1/3 pot with KK on T65r against a likely weak player opening UTG (we're in MP). I would have gone 1/2 to 2/3 pot here with our value hands hoping to just put more money into the pot with likely the best hand which seems like the right thing to do exploitatively against weak opponents. I'm curious as to why you chose 1/3 on a flop that seems somewhat connected and hard for him to miss. I'm guessing weak players are inclined to just think, "I have a pair so I call" or "I missed the flop so I fold," in which case we just need to build the pot as there's a good chance he's not paying attention to our bet sizing.
Wondering if I am making too many assumptions about this player already and also why you chose the smaller size? I understand sizing may not be solved in this spot yet as multiple sizings probably work well. Thanks!
I'm hoping to get value from AQ/AJ/KQ.
@ 32:25 - (pertaining to a 100bb strat, we are shallow so we folded) We opt to fold K2s opening BTN and being 3-bet by SB. I think snowie likes 4-betting these types of hands given we can call all of our suited aces so the next set of hands it likes are suited kings. What types of hands can I use to develop a 4-bet range BTN vs SB? I'm guessing you will say stuff with blockers. Some of those can just call pre-flop so we probably don't have many combos.
My 4-bet range here against your standard guy is K2s-K7s, A4o/A5o given I have no idea how he plays. I'm just wondering how I can refine that. Thanks again sauce!!!
This is at present really hard to measure. It depends quite a bit on the value of knowing IP doesn't improve often on non A/K flops, and also on the removal effects of 5b knowing the A/K is always in IP's bluffing region. I'm generally not a huge believer in snowie, but since 6m preflop isn't tractable from a GTO perspective I don't have convincing evidence to say snowie is wrong.
Just for the sake of balance, I would like to say that I enjoyed the shorttstacking part of the vid, I play shorttstack games often and it's rare that we get content from world class players. By the way, the 2.5x 76s HJ open 33bb deep seemed too loose.
Feel free to play optimal Hearthstone or Magic: The Gathering in your next vid.
I think it's because I play a lot of PLO/mixed games these days, but it's very common for players to play all kinds of different stack sizes in these formats. Apparently there's a norm in nlhe that 100bb is the right stack to play, but I've never been able to figure out why. I like to play different stack sizes both because it's sometimes +EV to play short (and lower variance) and because it's a fun gamble and keeps things fresh.
Hey Ben, I was looking forward to seeing some PioSolver action and a theory video about bet sizing if it's possible. The first two videos were amazing. I was excited when i saw the title "Intro to Solver(s)" but it seems like maybe you weren't going to continue that series, any plans on another installment?
Thanks in advance, Good luck at the tables and have a good week.
definitely would love to see more PIO videos.
Ben, when using minimum defense frequency, does it also apply on flops and turns or just rivers where the game tree basically ends
It's a per-street calculation, so at any given point, the larger relative to the pot size villain bets, the less frequently you have to defend.
I understand how it works, the question was whether you should try to meet MDF in all spots, because it's probably most effective in game tree ending spots and I rarely see people look for MDF on other streets other than the river.
I feel like I say this ad nauseam, but we're only at equilibrium if neither player can improve their EV. It's true that many spots in NLHE are at equilibrium with near MDF frequencies, but the cause of the frequencies isn't MDF. I think it's correct to think of MDF as a heuristic, which means we should be critical about when to apply it. The real cause of the frequencies is just the range interaction for any spot.
That being said, knowing approximately what MDF of your range is in any spot is a crucial mechanic of professional NLHE at this point.
MDF generally applies on flops, turns and rivers in situations where both distributions are of similar strength.
A good example of where MDF does not apply is preflop. Suppose it goes button 2.5x/sb 9x. Sb risked 8.5 to win 4, so MDF for button is <30%. Defending <30% is a really bad strategy. That's because hand values change a lot on the flop.
@35:00 you did'nt consider c/r the turn with your gut shot, you dont have a c/r range there or the at does not qualify to do so. i also like the diferent stack sizes, and for non zoom videos adding a 3rd table would be nice.
Good point Fabio. My range contains some 77/66, and some KQ here, as well as K7/K6, so I think a turn XR range is good. AxTs is probably a fine low frequency bluff to include.
Hi Ben, I'm very glad every time I see your video up and I learn a ton from your videos but please could you have auto reload for next video? I know it's more ev not to do it but most of us are playing 100bb+ so we are watching the videos to learn how to play at those stacks, I would think at least 90% of people who are watching your videos are not shortstacking.
I mean you are making videos for us to learn so it would be nice if you could have reload on as it's really hard to learn anything that we can use when most play is short stacked.
Thanks for your great videos otherwise as I find them best out of anyone here and it annoyes me when I see you posted a video and me going from beeing very happy that I'll learn alot, only to see it's a shortstack play.
I was surprised that you folded 77 from the SB to a single raise. You said you only have a 3B or fold strategy there but I'm surprised that folding 77 is better than calling.
i'm also interested why in this situation you're playing a 3BET/fold strategy because i thought calling in this spot against an EP open makes sense (77-99, AJs KQs, some smaller connectors)
what MDF means?
Minimum defense frequency
@36:30, after opening the sb you say you mix betting and checking w/ 76o on Q52r. You decide to check and say this is a very easy fold when villain bets 1/2 pot. Do you never find any XC or XR continues with 3straights on a texture that is so dry it must be hard to continue widely enough on? I'm under the impression that we're not shooting for our true MDF frequency here and that under-continuing is ok, but a hand with such strong equity vs 2nd & 3rd pair and robust backdoor equity seems like it may be too strong to XF with a very high frequency here.
I think we need something slightly better, I think the worst 3ST hand I'd defend here is T9o. I'd defend 76s here as well.
when you check/call 76s and T9o and turn open ender and IP bets, do you c/r these combos at 100% frequency? (idt u have enuf value combos to do so) I assume check/call with 7 hi and T hi OOP is out of the question
jeez ben what was that
great video.
at 15min with a8 on j63r, do you not cbet range on these boards? I see you tend to use a small betsize on these board types, so isnt that done so you can cbet range and get protection for uir range as well as likely make him underdefend or defend hands that give him a weak defending range and therefore will be vulnerable to a double barrel?
If you check back A8, im guessing u cbet more polar, but i dont see you betting larger than 40%-50% pot on these boards almost ever. Wouldnt you bet larger than 40%-50% pot if you were using a polar range?
I think we have a strong enough range advantage to cbet our whole range and shouldnt expect to get c/r much since i doubt he defends 63o j6o j3o.
Do you balance a lot of options on this board (cbet 1/3rd, check, cbet 1/2) and do you think its wrong to cbet 1/3rdish with ur whole range? I tend to do that on a lot of paired boards and disconnected boards like this (as the 6/3 dont make many offsuit pairs/gutshots for the BB)
I think we'll see a betting frequency of 65-100% for spots like this. It's fine to X behind a ton of different hands with a fairly low frequency. The highest frequency X down hands tend to be the A7o/A8o, Axs type of stuff.
I think betting 1/3 with range is a very good strategy choice though. Be capable of mixing in X against aggro XR from OOP.
Ben,
Do you have any video out there where you are explaining the small betsizes? I.e the 1/3 pot or less, mostly on the draw heavy boards. To me it just seems like we are giving them better odds to suck out when valuebetting and get less folds when bluffing.
Thanks
Hi ben! i would really like to know more about your thoughs on why you are opening that wide on the small blind. You should make a video about it. I think alot of people would appreciate it!
Not sure if this thread is still going but it rly seemed like op was stationing off a lot of spots.
Do we feel that villains are over bluffing in these games or?
I felt like many of the spots in these games were folds but if Ben is doing it there must be a good reason
Hey Ben, I liked the idea of forcing all those short stack spots for a video. Was awesome to see what sauce123 would do in those spr/stack depth situations.
Great video!
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