2 Table $.5/$1 HU NLHE vs Seth1113 (part 1)
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3:50 Table 1 Jd8c on 8d6d4s.
You mention that check/raising the flop and checking a lot of turns is a viable option. Aside from protecting vs some over card combinations and perhaps getting a few more bb's in against some of villain's semi-bluffs or combo draws, what would that play be achieving? Also, how relevant is it that you hold the Jd when choosing between the call and x/r option? It seems like backdoor potential and playability becomes even more important when we're choosing to inflate the pot and narrow villain's range.
Jd,
I wouldn't worry too much about this kind of protection raise. I think doing it in moderation adds value to our strategy on certain turns where our flop semibluffs hit a marginal hand. If we never XR flop with some protection raises then on these turns we'll have to either barrel a bluffcatcher (which tends to bleed EV) or we'll have to XC a region of nut hands to avoid getting barreled (which also bleeds EV supposing our range is overly polarized between marginal made hands and bluffs to XC). XR these medium made hands can also let us barrel on good turns and river some bluffcatchers, which can decrease the value of villain's floats. One other benefit is of course strengthening our range on paired runouts where we can easily over semibluff if we're extremely polarized to XR flop.
In a lot of ur HU vids there's ton of spots where you say you bet or check sometimes or raises sometimes with the same hand and I'm just wondering if u're ever planning on making a study based video on this sort of stuff how you would figure it out and with what software etc. Since most of my off table work for hunl is mostly if more if I'm bluffing here with that hand 100% of the time in a spot etcetc. I hope you understand, I had a hard time expressing my thoughts.
I can make a video on this at some point. The general idea is that if certain combos are often played together, then villain will be able to exploit us by countering our blockers. For example, if we always bluff 76o on Ad4c2s, then villain will have an easy time folding A7 and A6 to a 3barrel, but might have an easy call with A5 or A3. A similar point holds for semibluffing combos, we want to be able to make a variety of made hands and bluffs on different runouts no matter what line we take early on.
Interesting. How much of mixing your actions with the same hands is based on actual work off the tables (leading to a high degree of confidence that mixing your action with 76o on that A42r is beneficial) and how much on intuition (hunch that it's good, but not based on work in CREV or whatever)? You seem to be advocating more than one option quite often and you always struck me as a player who is very precise in his strategy so I found that to be a bit surprising.
I've just found from playing really strong exploitative players that good things happen when I mix up my play. I've also found in a lot of analytical work I've done off the tables that mixing it up isn't a bad idea in theory either.
Nice video Ben. I would also like to see a future video dedicated to showing how to evaluate this “sometimes"
Hey Ben, very nice video. Id like to ask you a few questions if possible..
00:40 76o+bdfd on Q94ddh hand. How do you handle differents frecquencys to sometimes check and sometimes bet a combo like this ? And beeing a hand that you can sometimes bet, sometimes check.. Do you think that any line is slightly more important than the other one to bet with a little higher frecquency ? Or when do you think one is more important than the other one ?
05:43 You called a 3bet with 78dd and flop came K52r. Do you think its important to have a raising range here ? At least close to 5% ? Specially considering that we are facing a ~30% cbet flop strategy .. If yes, wouldnt be this hand a ~100% raise on the flop ?
Hi Juan
@00:40, By definition, if I say I'll sometimes bet sometimes check then it must be true that the vacuum EV of each play is the same. In general, I think good strategy is to barrel always or often with stronger semibluffs and barrel never or occasionally with weaker ones. A hand like 76o turns OK here, and I think it can be barreled occasionally, I'd probably try to fire around 1/3 and X around 2/3. As I get an idea for my opponent's playstyle I'll start exploitatively betting or checking these mixed strat combos.
@5:43, I don't think a flop raising range is particularly important, though if I had to guess an ~5% raising strat probably outperforms a 0% one. I'd think call/raise/fold are all really close with 8d7d here, I tend to prefer call when I'm IP since I think it makes my opponent's life more difficult. If the flop was Qd9d6s I think a raising range would add significantly more value because of protection.
@16:23 w A7o. you say you have a really terrible calling hand cause of the A and the diamond. can you elaborate?
I think his bluffs would be more of 89/9T, no sd value fl draws, random 4/5x, so I don't understand why the Ad is bad.
thanks in advance
Hi schifty,
The Ad is bad because the NFD can be a part of many triple barrel ranges. If he doesn't barrel the missed NFD ever then the Ad is good or neutral. However, the main reason my hand is bad to call with is just that I don't hold a Q. A fair amount of villain's value bets will be 1PR with a Q, Q9-AQ especially, and therefore the Q becomes by far the most important blocker in this situation. Additionally, my range will have a ton of Qx in it to get to this line, so it's fine to only call the river bet with Qx+ or 2PR.
Hey guys,
I had a hard time narrating this video live. Hands happen so fast hu and there's a lot to think about, especially in nlhe. So the quality of analysis might be a bit lower than in some of my other videos where there's more downtime.
I would vote for improved commentary quality if it means that you have to record and comment after
I think its fine Ben. I'm sure many people know there is a tradeoff between the formats. I specifically enjoy the combination of videos you spread yourself with: Theory, live play, post play commentary, and CREV analysis
It is very beneficial for me to see how you think on the fly as well
21:57 what are your thoughts about his blocking bet on the river? I don't understand the reasoning behind it, your range is a lot stronger there given the fact that you have AK/AQ/AA/KK/QQ/JT which he can't have. Doesn't make sense to me to lead there if you have such a big range advantage. Can't you just make a huge overbet there or something? :D
We also have a 5 which is a pretty good blocker since we block the best hand he can have, which is 54.
Once when Ben x/back the turn, he removes most of this hands by his perceive range. I am calling the flop with plenty amount of Ax, Kx, Qx, so I end up having stronger range on the river in terms of equity in my opinion.
Also I defended the bb a bit tighter, so I didn't had so many miss draws as I probably suppose to have.
I agree that Ben could raise me huge and I probably don't have what to do, but this is just one time play. If he continue to put so much presser on this types of boards I will adjust either start calling ligther this overbets or slowplaying some stronger hands pre.
Lol omg, I missed the turn action. I thought Ben bet the turn!
I knew I missed something. How did I miss that...
23:10 K4dd; do you think checking behind flop here is worst than cbetting? I think it's hard to get him to fold many hands on the turn that check called flop, even if we have the 2nd NFD I think barreling off may get you to overbluff many spots like that one when we missed? Also we could get check raised a lot of the time on the turn which make us harder to realise our equity. I think river is very nice one to bluff on, but don't u think a larger size here will work much better for all our betting range cause we will be having more nutted hands than him?
Ty sir, always enjoying your videos :)
Piter,
I think a lot of hands fold the turn, any middle pair or worse without a gutter, and any bare OE without backup. When I get XR on the turn I just have to peel and shove river vs X. I decided to bet turn because I have fewer B/X/decide lines in my flop CB range when I cb on the larger side like I did here.
Hey, guys. It was awesome experience to play against Ben, glad I had this chance.
Ben, excuse me for my fast playing, I didn't realize that I put you in bad spot this way.
No, you were a great opponent. You played at a good normal pace for hu. I just wasn't prepared for how fast it is to narrate live hu.
Hey, Ben. I'm curious about where most of the EV comes from when playing a tougher reg opponent like in this video. It isn't that obvious in this video other than the few exploitable calls or folds you make every now on then based on some assumptions you've made earlier in the video. This question might be too general but what are the biggest mistakes regs make against you in HUNL?
I think the main thing is that I'll adjust better, and that my fundamentals in most spots are better. This will add up over time.
Ben, great video.
36:38 I hope you look this one on CREV. I find somewhat difficult to find good hands to x/r bluff OTR when your flop floating range contains a good portion of Qh-Jh/Qd-Jd [T-9] and bluffing with those category of hands doesn't seem appropriate. Turning a hand as Q9dd into a bluff doesn't seem necessary either. If his river strategy is to b/f KJ- maybe it can be a case to do it.
If you fold offsuit 8[2-4] preflop and 8[5-7] OTT then very few hands on your range improve OTR. So, given this range structure, if you expand your river x/r range to 8x+ it may be somewhat hard to properly balance this structure when your value region naturally overtakes your bluffing region. In this case, how putting 8x hands in your x/r range impacts the EV of the strategy across the nutted portion of your range and the bluffing range ?
Thanks and good luck at the tables.
Hey Raphael,
I looked at this hand in CREV and I should be XC river with trips. It's very close though. I think my CR bluffing region is either 9x or weak Kx here.
Tc5d table 2 @4.20
His cbet range 6x 4x 9x Tj 8x Overpairs 2pair+ then air, so assume nearly all air folds and were now playing the turn vs the stated range, the 4c turn makes it more likely he has 6x, then 9x and TJ that may or not call once more. Let's assume say 30% of 9x and TJ peel. We then get a 9 river so now the most likely hand left is a 6 or the x of time he has TJ and all 2pair+. We then give him a price that could call 100% of the time? Not sure what street to add in the 8x folds, some players will let it go turn and then river should be folding easily including overpairs.
Could you explain more on this hand im really interested as i would never flop raise btm pair in any spot, i see above you stated one benefit we get to barrel paired run outs that a polar range doesnt have. You say your 10 turns don't need protection i assume because we alot of Tx turns that favor us, how much did this influence your decision to raise flop.
I think he'll have hands like TT-AA, as well as any pair+clubs that will almost always fold river. He'll also probably have some TP combos like Q8-A8 that will fold. He might occasionally fold weaker 2PR, though this seems less likely both for him to get to the river with and for him to fold when he gets there.
Hey Ben , great as always.
9:28 - on 7hQxJx Ah 9h - he checks his 47 OTR when turn was x-x . You said that you like his
check. Why is that?
I pretty much bluff always here, not only because it is my worst hand but I will fold all of Jx/9x/7x .
I'd guess that 7x has too much showdown value relative to FE to turn into a bluff. 66< seems like a fine bluffing region, as there's a huge EV gap between those hands and 7x on this runout.
Hello, Ben, Thanks for the video)
4.50 T5o
Whats the idea of blocking bet on the river with that hand? He folds nothing and every hand that he calls with beats us..
If that's true, then we should always value bet this spot. If we're always value betting then he should fold stuff. Repeat.
had a good laugh when the 200$/400$ reserved seat popped in
Could you elaborate a bit more why you can't c/r your rivered 810 on K8298 board to his 3 barrel? Surely he's never playing J8 like that so you only lose to K8, 22, 28 and 99. Could we even raise small then fold to a shove showing no one would even rebluff with so little behind? Or can you never fold to a reshove with the amazing price you would be getting so it's basically 100bbs with this hand or just call OTR?
I assume if you're just calling this you would never check shove the river with missed weak flush draw / j10 float you just called turn with?
We can X/shove river with our boat combos, as well as random 9x/Kx, which should sum to around 5-7% XR freq. We can't X/shove 8x here unless he makes a mistake with his betting range at some point earlier in the hand.
hey ben, first of all great vid! I really appreciate it! What do you think about leading the 78 on 7928r at 20:49 on the right table? I think we can get a lot of value from worse and our hand is pretty vulnerable on some rivers (board pairs, cards which bring a 1-card-straight). I think we can balance that range with turned straight draws, which will be mostly ace highs.
B,
I think a good heuristic in nlhe is to never lead into the aggressor from the prior street unless the board changes, usually significantly. On the 8 turn card our range is still mostly weak, and IP is still mostly barreling, so it doesn't make a ton of sense to construct a leading range.
I guess the key point is that when deciding to construct a leading range it's crucial to realize how this will effect the EV of our X range against a clairvoyant or observant opponent.
Hey Ben,
Awesome Awesome video! truly eye opening for low stakes striving and struggling grinders like myself! :) Have couple of questions
7:25 right table - A59 you say "any 9 and especially 5 can benefit a lot from small protection bet"
15:56 right table QdJd on AsJ5s6s - you say it's a really easy check behind IP, why don't you want to bet small for protection?
11:06 left table 3c5c3d10d with 44 - you check behind IP, why don't you want to bet small for protection?
24:45 right table Kd3 on Q83dd - you bet flop small and say it's very important to bet small for protection with pair of 3s
In mtt one always bets for protection (which is likely a leak), and many many HU instructors on RIO always say "bet polarized, c-bet polarised, etc." (if you watch other instruction videos on RIO, you would find in 80%+ spots if not much more that instructors don't c-bet 2nd and 3rd pairs. which seems to be different from what you do). Please please give some thoughts on that as i'm going mad on this topic :)
Many thanks in advance!
Hi J, nice post.
I guess the most honest answer I can give, (which might not be completely satisfying) is that I have an idea of how I want my ranges to fit together over the course of the hand, and protection betting, particularly on the flop, is a part of the plan. My protection bet frequency varies positively with my range advantage, and varies negatively with the EV lost for a given hand if I give a free card. It's also important that I don't really care about protecting against hands which continue anyway, I care more about the EV difference between protecting against his 'fold to cb' region versus risking a bet and narrowing his range. So, for example, on A95s, if I cb 2/5th pot I'll usually fold out most Q hi, and some K hi, and anything worse like T7o. Many of the folding hands gain a significant amount of EV from a hand like 54 if I X it behind, because they'll turn either better pairs or a semibluff which forces me to fold.
On the other hand, balancing protection bets is very tricky against good players because turning a hand like 54 into a semibluff is too inefficient (it's too high up in our range to bluff with in hu NL and beat the EV we'd get checking somewhere), so if we protection bet we need to figure out a way to get the hand to SD safely.
Ben, thanks a lot! at the very least, i learned i might c bet with 5 on A95 :) (seriously, a lot of things to think about based on your reply for anybody who is willing to put work on his own).
Any thoughts you can give on my 2nd question (having multiple bet sizes in similar spots depending on a particular hand and purpose of the bet). I think it makes perfect sense (at least in low and and mid stakes games), but every time i bet 30% pot to get value from 3rd pair or A high i hear voices of other RIO instructors in my head saying "you, fish, have to have 1 bet sizing in most similar spots or you will get exploited by clairvoyant opponent" :) Now, i don't know how many clairvoyant opponents play nl200 :), but i do think that in order to effectively deal with voices in my head i can either go to a therapist or for somebody as good as you to say that having multiple bet sizes for exploitative purposes is fine, and, if yes, then when? :)
Not to reply for Ben (old thread now, catching up), but he gets asked bet sizing questions for every video, and his response has always been that it doesn't matter what size you choose, as long as you are balanced for each sizing and understand which size is appropriate for which range.
I think one of the hallmarks of strong players like Sulsky is not having 1 sizing for all similar spots, but rather balancing multiple sizings with the same range.
So if you're betting 30% pot on the river on a given board, just think about what parts of your range want to bet that size. Or, if you recognize it's a specific exploitative adjustment, I find it helps the learning process and makes you more confident to verbalize to yourself "I'd normally bet X size with this part of my range, but this time I'm betting 30% to exploit Y leak".
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