Zone Action: $2.50/$5 Live Session

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Zone Action: $2.50/$5 Live Session

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Tyler Forrester

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Zone Action: $2.50/$5 Live Session

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Tyler Forrester

POSTED Feb 26, 2019

A small pool abounds as Tyler Forrester aka Gogol's Nose breaks down a session in real time at the American-facing Bovada tables.

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Brian Space 6 years ago

I think your videos are consistently wonderful. Sharing your insights and thought processes provides a lot of value.

A language thing, you say things like "that bet sizing exists at equilibrium." Almost any non-exotic strategy can be balanced to an equilibrium, many with positive EV. I also find RIO and other pros that misapply such logic fairly often. What is a thing in one person's strategy might not be in another and both may be reasonable.

I am not implying that in this case -- I'd just like to hear the conditionals behind your statement. It is easy to infer what you are implying but hearing your analysis would be terrific. How do you think about the multiple bet sizing equilibria and use in the existing metagame?

Thank you again for sharing with the community.

Tyler Forrester 6 years ago

Thanks Brian, really good question! I really like how you think about this. I think you've nailed a common flaw which is gto betsizing implies GTO, which is really very very far from the truth.

I probably should say the opposite more, "This betsizing doesn't exist often at equilibrium", because that's along the lines of what I am thinking. If it doesn't exist in GTO land, I'm probably playing some sort of recreational player and need to switch to more exploitative style. My actual comment can be intrepreted as "maybe I'm playing a pro" . It's not guaranteed but is more likely..

dante3234 6 years ago

min 29:51 is correct to bluff that many combos? K9o what is the right GTO frequency to shove on the River?

in min 31:27 QK how frequent are we Overbetting? turn and do we have a check range? there or its 100% turnbet?

Tyler Forrester 6 years ago

Really good questions!

I should bluff around 8 combos, so I could bluff K9, but I'd need to be careful. This was an exploitative play, that got caught. Mathematically, I should raise around 15 combos on the turn and then check back 7 combos, while continuing with the 12ish combos of T9.

I don't overbet here much in practice, because it makes my river play more difficult, which is where a lot of value in the game comes. I'm never checking here, though I believe under some assumptions, a check would have been merited (over fold turn, overbet bluff river).

UCBananaboy 6 years ago

Great video as always Tyler. Thank you.

The presence of the 'hot rec' and the small player pool really enhanced the video and added such a unique dynamic. Thanks for talking about the possible adjustments you'd make in-game to react to what you suspect is his emotional state, attitude, and general approach as a person who has amassed a huge stack.

If you weren't recording a video, is this the type of player pool you would have forced yourself to play in (due to the presence of a big stacked / bad player?) Or would this have been a session where you may have taken a short break since you had lost several stacks and would look to reset mentally?

Perhaps you've mentioned it in previous videos, but what sort of win-rates do you think the absolute best are realizing at the $1/$2 or $2/$5 ZONE games?

Tyler Forrester 6 years ago

Thanks for the comment!
I would always play in this field, because with the limpers, I clearly have an edge, but you're right I would have taken a break after the second or third stack to reset. I know emotionally that I won't be centered and that can be expensive.
Upper bound on winrates is really high like 20bbs/100, though nobody actually gets those.
Anything positive is good with the best regs, I believe around 8bb/100.

Juan Pastor 6 years ago

Very nice vid as usual Tyler, big fan here!
I watch on ur videos you play pretty wide as SB, maybe 80%+? I’m interested in whats your winrate at sb when unopened, it would ve great to know your evbb/100 in that spot if thats fine for you :). Totally ok too if you don’t want to share this!
Keep up the good work!

Tyler Forrester 6 years ago

Hi Juan! Appreciate the kinds words! I'm a big fan of yours too.

For what it's worth, I haven't found a hand in my opening range that is -EV to open from the small blind. Now, this can't possibly be true at equilibrium or on PokerStars with names associated, but it does mean that I'm very liberal opening from the small blind.

piownu 6 years ago

22.39; 47s Isn't evry solver saying now that calling OOP to 3 bets wide is not that great? And isn't 47s a bit of bottom of our range? he made small 3 bet but our open was small as well so it's not that small, more than 3x open, also we are only 100BB deep, rake, OOP etc. What is a reasing behind this call which i missed? (poor skill post flop by average player on ignition?)

Tyler Forrester 6 years ago

Really good question!

From my work with preflop solvers, I have a healthy skepticism of their results so tend to focus more on empirical model and model averages. Most solvers say this is slightly bad call (think -1 bbs/100). They also generally have the opinion that the out of position has optimized a 3-betting range against a complicated limp/open raise strategy, which no one is playing in these pools. From my perspective what the solver is saying is "Assuming a optimized 3-betting range against an uncommon strategy and a GTO perfect postflop play, this call is slightly bad". It's perfectly correct that folding would be solver preferred, but the GTO assumptions here don't hold, so we don't have any information about the situation. I suspect you will pio own me :).

sami17 6 years ago

How do you think BB should be responding vs a SB RFI where you think SB is opening wider then optimal but their are no screen names so you don't really know. I see you mostly just opting to call these very weak hands but I wonder what you think BB overall adjustment should be?

Tyler Forrester 6 years ago

I tend to call more here than 3-bet, because calling will perform better against players who are raising tighter than 3-betting will against the same players. From a max exploit strategy, never-folding and 3-betting aggressively is the most effective exploit, though the precise frequencies, I'm going to say our proprietary.

Captain2323 6 years ago

Do you play any highstakes games like 2k+? To me it seems you gotta be printing at midstakes given your skills but you surely can beat even higher games right?

Tyler Forrester 6 years ago

Good ask :)
I've played a couple hundred thousands hands at 10/20 plus and done well. I like playing smaller games, because I can work on a smaller bankroll and have less risk of ruin, (both from poker site seizures and run bad). I give up some winrate from this, but it's not as much as you'd think, because there is substantially more liquidity a midstakes. It's struck a nice balance for me and I've made plenty of money :).

Bingo 123 6 years ago

Thank you Tyler great video as always!
6.36 with QQ on 556s how much better is check/raise here vs betting ?
Is it not better to check KK,AA here and bet kind of the 99-JJ region because they are more vulnerable ?

How are you playing AK in this spot vs a rec?

Tyler Forrester 6 years ago

You're right JJ-99 will be lower EV checks, but they will also be lower EV bets, which evens this out against the nemesis.

The actually play depends pretty heavily on player type. The equilibriums here between betting and checking are very close against the nemesis. More reasonably, I think about how wide players would be willing to float a small bet and how aggressively they raise and then compare that to how willing the player is to bet and stack off with say 22 after getting checkraised here. In my opinion recreational players are more likely to bet stack-off 22 here than they are likely to raise 22 on the flop to a bet, so I usually check-raise against that player type.

Bingo 123 6 years ago

Thanks I like that approach. How wide can we go tho, would play 99 the same way ?

Bingo 123 6 years ago

Hi Tyler, Yes that makes a lot of sense thanks

The other thing is playing AK in these kinds of spots, I often think oh I can't bet for value so I check/call, vs rec's that is. What's the best approach vs rec's in 3bet pot's oop when we don't hit. Should we often check flop. Or should we cbet and then check/call turn making money from their draws. It a spot that has me often confused. Sorry for the vague question, But I hope you can sign some enlightenment on it.

Tyler Forrester 6 years ago

AK is difficult on these types of board textures, because the rec often puts us on AK, so he plays well against that particular hand. This means our pot share regardless of line is low. I tend to check here and evaluate because it is lower variance than betting, but I don't have a prefered line here, because I think they are all roughly equal EV against an unknown player.

kerouac 6 years ago

I always love your videos!
I love the fact that you're always open and honest about your emotional state and that you put so much emphasis on the player's emotional state and how they can change their game. It's something that not many people talk about.
Thank you

RunItTw1ce 5 years, 11 months ago

Curious how you do trusting your read instead of gto. You said you were worried about some manical player exploiting you, but most players play a pretty tight strategy.

Your 74cc hand around 22:40 you opened little over 2bb and got 3bet to 8bb, you said the 3bet was small.Do you always make it 10bb+ vs smalll raises? At what point is 74s a fold?

I think you would print more using more exploit as most people do. You have a great read to go with it.

Zone poker easy to cash out from these days? I havent played it since it was part of bovada.

Tyler Forrester 5 years, 11 months ago

Great question!

A member said that he thought that the 74s was heavily exploitative play rather than GTO call. I think I'm in the minority here with my call. I tend to regard the BB 3-bet range is being less memorized and more impulsive than other situations, which tends to increase the equity of most hands, so I make more (unpopular) marginal calls.

MrWizard15 5 years, 9 months ago

Hey Tyler, question about the hand at 14 seconds in the video (K6).
You mention that we want his queens to call bc we have a range advantage. Isn't this logic flawed? Sure, if we have a king we want him to call with a queen, but if we have a bluff, we'd like a fold by the river from a queen. Thus, we should be betting primarily according to our hand strength and NOT according to what we want him to call with. Am I correct?

Tyler Forrester 5 years, 9 months ago

Depends on how I structure my range, if I overbluff, then I want all the queens to fold. If I'm underbluffing, I want all the queens to call and if I'm bluffing optimally, I don't care.

I believe I've misunderstood your second point. Yes we should bet according to our hand strength, but our hand strength is closely related to his calling range. If he never calls worse, then we shouldn't be the hand-- no matter what GTO says-- because the bet will negative EV.

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