Interesting decision with Ad4 in a 3b squeeze spot @ 36:00-39:30. You opt to do, and advocate for, a flop check. I feel like I've taken this course of action in this spot a lot as a deafult in the past, but recently I've changed to betting. It just seemed like I didn't turn equity enough to continue vs a bet or two on turn and river. I also started to think that it would be more valuable to win the significantly sized pot immediately, rather than check and hope to gain additional value. I think this works very well with ranges here, too. Villain is going to have tons of KQ, KT, AT, A9 stuff that just has zero equity and won't entertain any thoughts of continuing. He'll have some draws like QT, Q9s and T9 that it's concievable you get to beat at showdown with A high on a rare occasion, as a bonus. I would bet 17,500 here with the thought that the ~3k in additional chips from the bet you chose would discourage playbacks often enough (55 types mainly) to make the extra 1bb investment worth it. Unfortunately I'm not adept at the maths either, so I have no concrete evidence to present, but betting and winning 50k, which will happen quite often, seems like a better option than trying to get to showdown/calling down.
Final thought is that this villain may over-bluff the turn if we check - he may not realize that we can have plenty of 88-JJ and even potentially AK here that him betting 100% of his bluffs on the turn is going to be a plauisble strategy. I think he's likely to think: check = weakness, I have bad cards, time to pounce. And in this case, we have the worst hand in our flop checking range to face this anticipated action.
Fwiw, I'm pretty sure vovtroy is Vladimir Troyanovski. Which, if accurate, is pretty badass, because that guy grinds a midstakes/high stakes MTT schedule with some frequency. He'll be playing like 10 tables too. Not your typical billionaire!
James Obst11 years, 1 month agoYeah I hear you on this one. My instinct commentating was that there wasn't enough hands with limited equity that would be snap folding but on reflection I agree there's probably enough to want to bet, and it's funny looking now and commentating after playing because obviously my instinct at the time of playing was different and in support of your opinion here. I guess I wasn't anticipating getting c/r bluffed by any of those hands regardless of small sizing but nevertheless I agree with making it a bit bigger because I couldn't be sure of that judgement.
I would say though that I'm capable of calling turn and sometimes river here once I check back, whether it's good or bad. Even on non-diamond turns there's plenty that I would strongly consider continuing to and I do like the idea of picking off some value in a spot that will look attractive for him to bluff at. The possibility of being up against better aces and bad pairs that might bluff (although, what bad pairs? if any pairs bet twice they'd probably be for value on most runouts) plus all the value though is scary enough to wonder if my hand is too weak to be a hero with (and that's really upping the variance).
Whether he would 3bet the suited Ax/A9 etc and KQ pre is an important consideration that seems very unclear. I do instinctively lean towards giving him a more broadway-heavy range, which is why I feel I can entertain calling down - but then maybe Jx is just too common, since KQ is a bit more likely to reraise at some point pre and KTo is dubious to call the squeeze. I think my shaky assumption that he wasn't likely to be a crazy aggressive tourney player meant that I thought I wouldn't face 2 barrels a huge amount if I checked back, though a turn bet is definitely likely. It seems like the amount of Ax we give him to play this way pre probably dictates the best line - dodging him 3betting pre and back-jamming over my squeeze just feels somewhat uncommon from non-broadway or suited connector hands from a good player.
The moral of the story probably is that computer software was created for a reason and I should just let the computer solve this. At the moment I think I just prefer the 18k bet. Nick Rampone11 years ago
Edit: Not sure what's with the formatting disaster. I wrote this in Word, so Bill Gates in the culprit, just not sure the mechanism that he used for the crime.
I’m with you on the idea that he won’t be x/r bluffing your flop cbet too much. I just think that the bigger you bet, the less likely he is to x/r bluff, even though we’re talking about miniscule, likely negligible differences in the affect on his x/r frequency here. I think a bigger bet OTF, say 3k more, which is 1BB does have a meaningful impact on how often he calls your flop cbet. And If we can invest 1BB more to increase our fold equity, and secure the entire pot right now with no resistance, it seems well worth it. Proposed hand that would be subject to changing from calls to folds with this subtle sizing change are 22, 44-66, and gutters like QTo, QTs, and 79s. I mean the fact is I’m splitting hairs here for the most part, and our bet size here can’t be too crucial of a decision. Yet, I felt compelled to speak those thoughts the subject! (*Rewatching the hand now, and realized you did get check raised here! I hadn’t realized or forgotten than in writing this post, so I should be bias free here, woot.)
Instinctively, this hand does feel like it’s right on the cutoff of being able to want to check to be able to induce, and call, some bluffs. I’m not too concerned with him bluffing with better, as you said, it just seems like there won’t be many combos of such hands. My biggest concern is him realizing his equity with 6 outs with KQ or whatever.
Great points about the makeup of his range. This is the key factor in our decision, as you said in wondering if he has a lot of Ax here or not. KQ is a bit more likely to play different at some point, but I feel pretty good about assigning him a near-full complement of KQ combos. I’m not nearly as sure that he’s calling all KTo here vs your 3b, even if he flats the initial raise. I do think his initial flatting range could be a wider than it normally would, or wider even that we might expect, because it could be his method of adjusting to BTN’s aggression; “BTN is raising so many hand, I can call wider here in the SB now”.
Indeed we should consult the machines on this one.
Okay, I think his initial flatting range vs the BTN open is going to be on the wide side. I gave him 22-77, A80-ATo (AJo+ 3b/gets in), A5s-ATs, 87s-QJs, 97s-KJs (not certain here, I’m not gonna assign him 100% of these combos, but I do think he’ll show up with some of them given conditions) KTo-KQo, K9s, and QJo. Some notable omissions/fringe hands: 67s, J8/Q8s, TJo, QTo, and some other Ax – suited or otherwise. Of the hands I said he for sure has, that’s like 150-160 combos.
Taking the flop the flopped, and running your equity with Ad4c vs that range, we’re 35.3% vs 64.7%. I don’t expect this to be an accurate or particularly meaningful number, as this assumes he’s called your 3b with all of these combos. It’s just for frame of reference. Let’s see what combos we think he’s peeling your 3b with.
Gone are all A8/A9o. Gone are 1/3 of his ATo combos (6 left). Gone are ½ of his KTo combos (6 left) Gone are his A5s-A8s combos (6 combos of ATs/A9s remain). Gone is 80% of his small pair combos 22-77, that’s 30 total combos to start. I think 80% of them fold or jam pre, some will randomly peel. Of those remaining 6, I’ll give him one combo of a set (1). He has all 87s-KQs (20 combos). He has all KQo (12 combos). He has 2/3 of his QJo (6 combos). 2/3 of his KJo (6 combos). He has all QT/J9s (7 combos). He has half of his T8s/97s/J8s for (call it 4 combos – all 97s for sake of calcs). He has all KT/AKs (7 combos). He has ½ of his K9/Q9s combos (4 combos) 75 combos remain. (ended up running the calcs with 102 combos since I couldn’t split combos in this program. I tried to estimate the weight. For example he has 3 combos of 333, but also an extra 10 or so combos or air broadway cards. Ad4c has 41.2% vs this range.
How is it best for us to realize that 41.2% equity, by betting or by checking? To help refine an answer to that question, let’s look at how his hands respond to a cbet. He has 25 combos that are air with no gutter, that are just folding. So that’s 1/3 right there. He has tons of gutters that we beat. It’s questionable if he check calls, check raises, or check shoves these hands (is it possible he check folds some of them?) Q9ss (backdoor FD) has 40% vs us here for reference. Then he has quite a bit of top pair and a bit of middle pair, 4 open enders, and a handful of FDs.
Now I don’t know what this pile of unrefined information tells us, but I think we’re certain to get folds with 1/3 of his range here that is pure air, so that makes it clear that a cbet is going to be profitable. I like cbetting to deny those hands a chance at realizing their reasonable equity. If we can fold out some gutters, that’s great too. And if he check calls his gutters at all, we can occasionally get to SD and win. If he check calls JTs, we occasionally spike our 3 outs twice with an ace. Things like these all improve the profitability of our bet.
A quick bit of devil’s advocate. I suppose we can realize a lot of equity by checking by capturing 2 bets from his 25% (6 out) hands on the flop. I do not have a good feel at all for how that situation would play out, both in terms of villain’s approach/tenancies in that spot, and what the math would say about all the various courses of action that might occur. It seems a bit dubious though, and I would just assume take the ambiguity out of it be cbetting. This also lowers our variance, which is a tangible benefit.
Lord have mercy, cheers ifyou read all this mumbo jumbo. First round is definitely on me if I run into you at a casino or a poker table, haha.
James Obst10 years, 11 months agoHaha great post, thanks, sorry I didn't get to it until now. Definitely a good one to break down on CREV or one of those programs. It does seem like if there's a betsize that will dissuade him from raising that's the way to go, but a bit of a catch 22 in that the more we bet the worse odds we give ourself on the bluff and the easier it makes it for him to commit with QTs type stuff. I would definitely bet without the Ad, but with it I'd have to have a clear picture of how the hand plays out after we check, knowing what % of his range is Jx on this flop would be a good place to start. I'm with you that if we bet my betsize of 14k was too small.
Perhaps an interesting note with having the Ad is that should the turn be a diamond I'd expect nearly all of his hands to bet, to which we would shove (Qd might be a tough spot?), picking up a valuable bet and folding out all of his non-Jx or flush equity (one time get it in against KdQx) in the process.
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Interesting decision with Ad4 in a 3b squeeze spot @ 36:00-39:30. You opt to do, and advocate for, a flop check. I feel like I've taken this course of action in this spot a lot as a deafult in the past, but recently I've changed to betting. It just seemed like I didn't turn equity enough to continue vs a bet or two on turn and river. I also started to think that it would be more valuable to win the significantly sized pot immediately, rather than check and hope to gain additional value. I think this works very well with ranges here, too. Villain is going to have tons of KQ, KT, AT, A9 stuff that just has zero equity and won't entertain any thoughts of continuing. He'll have some draws like QT, Q9s and T9 that it's concievable you get to beat at showdown with A high on a rare occasion, as a bonus. I would bet 17,500 here with the thought that the ~3k in additional chips from the bet you chose would discourage playbacks often enough (55 types mainly) to make the extra 1bb investment worth it. Unfortunately I'm not adept at the maths either, so I have no concrete evidence to present, but betting and winning 50k, which will happen quite often, seems like a better option than trying to get to showdown/calling down.
Final thought is that this villain may over-bluff the turn if we check - he may not realize that we can have plenty of 88-JJ and even potentially AK here that him betting 100% of his bluffs on the turn is going to be a plauisble strategy. I think he's likely to think: check = weakness, I have bad cards, time to pounce. And in this case, we have the worst hand in our flop checking range to face this anticipated action.
Fwiw, I'm pretty sure vovtroy is Vladimir Troyanovski. Which, if accurate, is pretty badass, because that guy grinds a midstakes/high stakes MTT schedule with some frequency. He'll be playing like 10 tables too. Not your typical billionaire!
I would say though that I'm capable of calling turn and sometimes river here once I check back, whether it's good or bad. Even on non-diamond turns there's plenty that I would strongly consider continuing to and I do like the idea of picking off some value in a spot that will look attractive for him to bluff at. The possibility of being up against better aces and bad pairs that might bluff (although, what bad pairs? if any pairs bet twice they'd probably be for value on most runouts) plus all the value though is scary enough to wonder if my hand is too weak to be a hero with (and that's really upping the variance).
Whether he would 3bet the suited Ax/A9 etc and KQ pre is an important consideration that seems very unclear. I do instinctively lean towards giving him a more broadway-heavy range, which is why I feel I can entertain calling down - but then maybe Jx is just too common, since KQ is a bit more likely to reraise at some point pre and KTo is dubious to call the squeeze. I think my shaky assumption that he wasn't likely to be a crazy aggressive tourney player meant that I thought I wouldn't face 2 barrels a huge amount if I checked back, though a turn bet is definitely likely. It seems like the amount of Ax we give him to play this way pre probably dictates the best line - dodging him 3betting pre and back-jamming over my squeeze just feels somewhat uncommon from non-broadway or suited connector hands from a good player.
The moral of the story probably is that computer software was created for a reason and I should just let the computer solve this. At the moment I think I just prefer the 18k bet.
Edit: Not sure what's with the formatting disaster. I wrote this in Word, so Bill Gates in the culprit, just not sure the mechanism that he used for the crime.
I’m with you on the idea that
he won’t be x/r bluffing your flop cbet too much. I just think that the bigger
you bet, the less likely he is to x/r bluff, even though we’re talking about
miniscule, likely negligible differences in the affect on his x/r frequency
here. I think a bigger bet OTF, say 3k more, which is 1BB does have a meaningful
impact on how often he calls your flop cbet. And If we can invest 1BB more to
increase our fold equity, and secure the entire pot right now with no
resistance, it seems well worth it. Proposed hand that would be subject to
changing from calls to folds with this subtle sizing change are 22, 44-66, and
gutters like QTo, QTs, and 79s. I mean the fact is I’m splitting hairs here for
the most part, and our bet size here can’t be too crucial of a decision. Yet, I
felt compelled to speak those thoughts the subject! (*Rewatching the hand now,
and realized you did get check raised here! I hadn’t realized or forgotten than
in writing this post, so I should be bias free here, woot.)
Instinctively, this hand does
feel like it’s right on the cutoff of being able to want to check to be able to
induce, and call, some bluffs. I’m not too concerned with him bluffing with
better, as you said, it just seems like there won’t be many combos of such
hands. My biggest concern is him realizing his equity with 6 outs with KQ or
whatever.
Great points about the makeup
of his range. This is the key factor in our decision, as you said in wondering
if he has a lot of Ax here or not. KQ is a bit more likely to play different at
some point, but I feel pretty good about assigning him a near-full complement
of KQ combos. I’m not nearly as sure that he’s calling all KTo here vs your 3b,
even if he flats the initial raise. I do think his initial flatting range could
be a wider than it normally would, or wider even that we might expect, because
it could be his method of adjusting to BTN’s aggression; “BTN is raising so
many hand, I can call wider here in the SB now”.
Indeed we should consult the
machines on this one.
Okay, I think his initial
flatting range vs the BTN open is going to be on the wide side. I gave him
22-77, A80-ATo (AJo+ 3b/gets in), A5s-ATs, 87s-QJs, 97s-KJs (not certain here,
I’m not gonna assign him 100% of these combos, but I do think he’ll show up
with some of them given conditions) KTo-KQo, K9s, and QJo. Some notable
omissions/fringe hands: 67s, J8/Q8s, TJo, QTo, and some other Ax – suited or
otherwise. Of the hands I said he for sure has, that’s like 150-160 combos.
Taking the flop the flopped, and running your equity with Ad4c vs that range, we’re 35.3% vs 64.7%. I don’t expect this to be an accurate or particularly meaningful number, as this assumes he’s called your 3b with all of these combos. It’s just for frame of reference. Let’s see what combos we think he’s peeling your 3b with.
Gone are all A8/A9o. Gone are
1/3 of his ATo combos (6 left). Gone are ½ of his KTo combos (6 left) Gone are
his A5s-A8s combos (6 combos of ATs/A9s remain). Gone is 80% of his small
pair combos 22-77, that’s 30 total combos to start. I think 80% of them fold or jam pre, some will randomly peel. Of those remaining 6, I’ll give him one combo of a set (1). He has all 87s-KQs (20 combos). He has all KQo (12 combos). He has 2/3 of his QJo (6 combos). 2/3 of his KJo (6 combos). He has all QT/J9s (7 combos). He has half of his T8s/97s/J8s for (call it 4 combos – all 97s for sake of calcs). He has all KT/AKs (7 combos). He has ½ of his K9/Q9s combos (4 combos) 75 combos remain. (ended up running the calcs with 102 combos since I couldn’t split combos in this program. I tried to estimate the weight. For example he has 3 combos of 333, but also an extra 10 or so combos or air broadway cards. Ad4c has 41.2% vs this range.
How is it best for us to realize that 41.2% equity, by betting or by checking? To help refine an answer to that question, let’s look at how his hands respond to a cbet. He has 25
combos that are air with no gutter, that are just folding. So that’s 1/3 right
there. He has tons of gutters that we beat. It’s questionable if he check
calls, check raises, or check shoves these hands (is it possible he check folds
some of them?) Q9ss (backdoor FD) has 40% vs us here for reference. Then he has
quite a bit of top pair and a bit of middle pair, 4 open enders, and a handful
of FDs.
Now I don’t know what this pile of unrefined information tells us, but I think we’re certain to get folds with 1/3 of his range here that is pure air, so that makes it clear that a cbet
is going to be profitable. I like cbetting to deny those hands a chance at
realizing their reasonable equity. If we can fold out some gutters, that’s great
too. And if he check calls his gutters at all, we can occasionally get to SD
and win. If he check calls JTs, we occasionally spike our 3 outs twice with an
ace. Things like these all improve the profitability of our bet.
A quick bit of devil’s advocate. I suppose we can realize a lot of equity by checking by capturing 2 bets from his 25% (6 out) hands on the flop. I do not have a good feel at all
for how that situation would play out, both in terms of villain’s approach/tenancies
in that spot, and what the math would say about all the various courses of
action that might occur. It seems a bit dubious though, and I would just assume
take the ambiguity out of it be cbetting. This also lowers our variance, which
is a tangible benefit.
Lord have mercy, cheers ifyou read all this mumbo jumbo. First round is definitely on me if I run into you at a casino or a poker table, haha.
Perhaps an interesting note with having the Ad is that should the turn be a diamond I'd expect nearly all of his hands to bet, to which we would shove (Qd might be a tough spot?), picking up a valuable bet and folding out all of his non-Jx or flush equity (one time get it in against KdQx) in the process.
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