When pureonyx set mined his 44 on the button at the beginning of vid, why did you say "we wouldn't do that there?" It was min raised to him on the dealer button...please explain...
This is because we don't have the odds to set mine, we have to put in 800 to potentially win 8505 which would give us around 11-1 which is good enough but this implies that we are always stacking the opener, which we aren't because his range is wide and that we are closing the action which we are not.
the most profitable play is likely to jam if hes opening enough, if we expect this guy to call AJs+ AQo+ 88+ we have 34.61% equity which means we need the villain to fold 53% of the time
that calling range is 5.88% of hands so if we think hes opening just over 12% of hands we should jam. However this calculation assumes we are in the bb, we still have to account for the two players to act behind being on the button
Liked alot this vid. Now you need to make another series of your win in this same tourney last sunday! You bust me in 4th , my kk<aq , lucky sun of a ..... Lol just kidding , std cooler. Congrats man!!
I love this line and it's one I'm going to take lots (I prefer it to checking turn, hoping for a check back then leading river as he can be pot controlling with so much OTT planning to snap river).
What I can't understand is why you said "I wouldn't bet again on the river if he called, most likely". Why not?
There's too many hands he is calling turn but folding river: KQ/QT/KT with a heart, some Ax, Khx, Qhx. Given how many snap folds he has on rivers your river bluff need not be more than 30-40% pot and I think it's elementary.
The small number of times he does turn up with Jx or better and calls or shoves river we have just opened our ranges up and did a good job of advertising for later hands.
Very fair point. My first instinct in this spot would be the as James stated in the video: Likely shut down my bluff OTR if unimproved. You make a very compelling case for our river bluff being a very successful (profitable) venture. I imagine if we worked out the specific hands combos, your stance here would be supported. You're right in saying that his Khx and Qhx combos are just going to make up so many sheer combos, that it's going to be tough for him to have enough 78hh and AJ (nutted) value combos to overcome the amount of air combos he'll be left with unimproved on the river. Such river cards (hearts) would be pretty easy for hero to identify as good for OTB's range, and thus easy to shut down on. Most other cards should be great to continue bluffing with, on the strength of how dominant the turn card is for our range vs BTN's range.
Roughly: BTN will have mostly Khx types. Remaining will be flushes+ (Jx checks back flop) and lots of Ax bluff catchers. Well the nuts of course are calling, but the Ax bluff catchers are in quite a pickle vs our increidble believeable line - we just have so many legitamate value combos that would play that way.
James Obst11 years agoHey Cmw, I like your and Nick's assessment on this. At times I'm sure I can be a bit too hesitant to pull the trigger on multi-barrel bluffs because I need to be aware of my image and perhaps am a little too fearful of peoples' propensity to make bad/stubborn/tilty calls (especially in a late tournament on a Sunday like this one). The deciding factor will likely be how he plays Ax - can we rely on him to call turn and fold river with all unimproved Ax? (strong players would definitely be capable of folding bad aces) That's the decision we have to make in-game (remembering playing optimal poker means playing an exploitative style, not simply GTO), and I think you're right that without further info the answer will be 'yes' for a lot of players.
Also being able to exclude most Jx from his range as they check back flop is an excellent point that I must have overlooked in my quick commentary on this, and makes it a far more attractive river bluff. Thanks
In that 33 vs 66 hand near the beginning, you say you don't like his 3 barrel because ozzy's probably not calling KJ type hands on the flop? I think he definitely will check call flop with all his kx, ax, QJ, JT, and a lot of those hands don't like calling river when we have all the strong hands in our range, so think the triple barrel is fine/good.
I believe James said that he won't be calling KJ OTT. Flop he surely is. But I think it's fair to think that a lot of those hands fold the turn, not liking where they stand vs IP's range, and with the fact that they'll likely be facing a river bet from said range, with little chance to improve with just the river to come.
James Obst11 years agoYeah on the turn sorry I don't think he ever calls with less than Ax, and given the shallowness of his stack the call feels very trappy. Ax in theory can be in a flop c/c, turn c/c range but I think most players are aware of the likelihood that on a board like this one a third barrel all-in is coming, so a lot of the decision making happens on the turn, ie. it's rare to find someone who feels OK about check-calling this turn and check-folding brick rivers (largely because most rivers are bricks). For this reason you see turn c/r all-ins commonly, and if greeted with a check-call from an Ax or KQ type, they'll usually not be folding brick rivers.
People don't like to feel like a fool, they like to see things coming. I think we've all been in the position of calling turn and folding a river in a spot like this and it makes you think "well I'm an idiot for not seeing that coming", so you don't do it again, instead of acknowledging the sometimes strong chance of a check behind, which can lead to some unbalanced frequencies in peoples' games.
Note that the logical adjustment from what I am saying would be for in position to bluff turn and check back rivers a lot, and therefore c/c turn c/f river for out of position should become a logical counter-adjustment to the change in peoples' barreling frequencies (and so the third barrel might then be OK). I do expect that these adjustments will happen (and likely are happening with some players), but speaking from experience and knowledge of how most people (especially tournament players) think about the game, I think the first paragraph is still typical of the current game. I hope that explanation wasn't too convoluted.
Hey thanks for that, sorry I didn't reply. If we identify a spot as being very close (which this is) I'd be looking towards tournament considerations to answer what we should do.
At 10:00 with KJo on a KT7 flop what hands are we checking the flop and calling the turn with? I thought that we needed hands like this in our check back range to protect us from getting bluffed on the turn when we check the flop since it only has 2 streets of value anyway. Is it less important to balance our range when we are 3-handed?
Hey mate, first thing to point out would be that we have more nutted hands in our range here than SB and obviously a range advantage against BB. Whilst SB will connect with this decently he is unlikely to raise often given he can only represent KQ, TT, 77. Ergo we should be betting often here and we're getting value and protection from KJ in this instance - just because we may only be able to get 2 streets doesn't mean it'll be easy to get them on turn and river, that we won't have a flop folding hand draw out on us, or that we won't lose more when beat as we would have surrendered control over bet sizing. IMO there's no issue with having a capped range when checking in this spot when BB is in the hand with countless straight draws (yeah, checking back heads up would be more tempting). To be fair though, looking back on this I didn't do a good job of articulating that decision.
You'll probably notice that my videos (especially those I've done before recent times) are a lot less GTO-oriented than other coaches. I would encourage you to let go of any thought processes that involve expressions like "need to", "to protect", etc. that you may have adopted, and to be sure to assess each unique spot on its merits with the mental clarity and freedom to choose the best line to suit the situation. In MTTs especially I think feeling you have to abide by such rules is too big of a handicap to overcome.
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When pureonyx set mined his 44 on the button at the beginning of vid, why did you say "we wouldn't do that there?" It was min raised to him on the dealer button...please explain...
This is because we don't have the odds to set mine, we have to put in 800 to potentially win 8505 which would give us around 11-1 which is good enough but this implies that we are always stacking the opener, which we aren't because his range is wide and that we are closing the action which we are not.
the most profitable play is likely to jam if hes opening enough, if we expect this guy to call AJs+ AQo+ 88+ we have 34.61% equity which means we need the villain to fold 53% of the time
that calling range is 5.88% of hands so if we think hes opening just over 12% of hands we should jam. However this calculation assumes we are in the bb, we still have to account for the two players to act behind being on the button
Perfect answer Thomas, and you even included some bonus material! I dig it. Cheers.
Liked alot this vid. Now you need to make another series of your win in this same tourney last sunday! You bust me in 4th , my kk<aq , lucky sun of a ..... Lol just kidding , std cooler. Congrats man!!
At 23:00 with the 45cc:
I love this line and it's one I'm going to take lots (I prefer it to checking turn, hoping for a check back then leading river as he can be pot controlling with so much OTT planning to snap river).
What I can't understand is why you said "I wouldn't bet again on the river if he called, most likely". Why not?
There's too many hands he is calling turn but folding river: KQ/QT/KT with a heart, some Ax, Khx, Qhx. Given how many snap folds he has on rivers your river bluff need not be more than 30-40% pot and I think it's elementary.
The small number of times he does turn up with Jx or better and calls or shoves river we have just opened our ranges up and did a good job of advertising for later hands.
Very fair point. My first instinct in this spot would be the as James stated in the video: Likely shut down my bluff OTR if unimproved. You make a very compelling case for our river bluff being a very successful (profitable) venture. I imagine if we worked out the specific hands combos, your stance here would be supported. You're right in saying that his Khx and Qhx combos are just going to make up so many sheer combos, that it's going to be tough for him to have enough 78hh and AJ (nutted) value combos to overcome the amount of air combos he'll be left with unimproved on the river. Such river cards (hearts) would be pretty easy for hero to identify as good for OTB's range, and thus easy to shut down on. Most other cards should be great to continue bluffing with, on the strength of how dominant the turn card is for our range vs BTN's range.
Roughly: BTN will have mostly Khx types. Remaining will be flushes+ (Jx checks back flop) and lots of Ax bluff catchers. Well the nuts of course are calling, but the Ax bluff catchers are in quite a pickle vs our increidble believeable line - we just have so many legitamate value combos that would play that way.
Also being able to exclude most Jx from his range as they check back flop is an excellent point that I must have overlooked in my quick commentary on this, and makes it a far more attractive river bluff. Thanks
In that 33 vs 66 hand near the beginning, you say you don't like his 3 barrel because ozzy's probably not calling KJ type hands on the flop? I think he definitely will check call flop with all his kx, ax, QJ, JT, and a lot of those hands don't like calling river when we have all the strong hands in our range, so think the triple barrel is fine/good.
I believe James said that he won't be calling KJ OTT. Flop he surely is. But I think it's fair to think that a lot of those hands fold the turn, not liking where they stand vs IP's range, and with the fact that they'll likely be facing a river bet from said range, with little chance to improve with just the river to come.
People don't like to feel like a fool, they like to see things coming. I think we've all been in the position of calling turn and folding a river in a spot like this and it makes you think "well I'm an idiot for not seeing that coming", so you don't do it again, instead of acknowledging the sometimes strong chance of a check behind, which can lead to some unbalanced frequencies in peoples' games.
Note that the logical adjustment from what I am saying would be for in position to bluff turn and check back rivers a lot, and therefore c/c turn c/f river for out of position should become a logical counter-adjustment to the change in peoples' barreling frequencies (and so the third barrel might then be OK). I do expect that these adjustments will happen (and likely are happening with some players), but speaking from experience and knowledge of how most people (especially tournament players) think about the game, I think the first paragraph is still typical of the current game. I hope that explanation wasn't too convoluted.
I feel like the TT hand is extremly close.
If you give the first shove, 22+,A2s+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,A8o+,KQo and the second guy
88+,AJs+,AQo+ : you are 36,39%
Given that the opener has JJ+ a small percentage and that your stack is healty do you really need to gamble in this spot?
Good video.
Hey thanks for that, sorry I didn't reply. If we identify a spot as being very close (which this is) I'd be looking towards tournament considerations to answer what we should do.
At 10:00 with KJo on a KT7 flop what hands are we checking the flop and calling the turn with? I thought that we needed hands like this in our check back range to protect us from getting bluffed on the turn when we check the flop since it only has 2 streets of value anyway. Is it less important to balance our range when we are 3-handed?
Hey mate, first thing to point out would be that we have more nutted hands in our range here than SB and obviously a range advantage against BB. Whilst SB will connect with this decently he is unlikely to raise often given he can only represent KQ, TT, 77. Ergo we should be betting often here and we're getting value and protection from KJ in this instance - just because we may only be able to get 2 streets doesn't mean it'll be easy to get them on turn and river, that we won't have a flop folding hand draw out on us, or that we won't lose more when beat as we would have surrendered control over bet sizing. IMO there's no issue with having a capped range when checking in this spot when BB is in the hand with countless straight draws (yeah, checking back heads up would be more tempting). To be fair though, looking back on this I didn't do a good job of articulating that decision.
You'll probably notice that my videos (especially those I've done before recent times) are a lot less GTO-oriented than other coaches. I would encourage you to let go of any thought processes that involve expressions like "need to", "to protect", etc. that you may have adopted, and to be sure to assess each unique spot on its merits with the mental clarity and freedom to choose the best line to suit the situation. In MTTs especially I think feeling you have to abide by such rules is too big of a handicap to overcome.
Thank you, I'll work on that, good to know before I start my weekend grind. Best of luck this weekend!
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