$10k WCOOP NLHE MTT Final Table (part 2)
Posted by Sauce123
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At 15 minutes in the holdemresources J3o calculation, did you mis-enter your stack? It has the other stacks as 498,498,498,398 then you at 103 and bb at 82.5 (if I'm reading it right, which I may not be I haven't used the program.) If you barely cover bb then jamming significantly tighter (ie 62.5%) seems reasonable but with your stack I expect it to be way wider. If anything I think you'd want to be jamming wider than cEV(81%) since he has some ICM effects making him want to play tighter but the effect on you (having 20x his stack) is ~0.
I just modified one of my other calculations which used the same stacks for all players. I didn't realize that the other table's stacks would significantly effect the calculation in the case where the two active stacks are close. Quadchraz shows a simulation with the correct stacksizes later on in this thread, and his result is that the SB shoves 92% ICM adjusted (though I can't see the inputs for his calculation). Anyways, this seems like a +$EV shove.
that A5s squeeze was "creative"
Had a good lauch at #yolo momentum. Maybe because I sometimes do the yolo stuff.
Very good video Ben.
36:34 A4hh 732hh8. Are you checking all flush draws on the spot or only those that have showdown value ?
At which stack depth do you think it becomes a play that doesn't exploit the amount of EV available of betting A/K flush draws on this texture ?
On the 8 turn I usually see myself checking more since a portion of my 8x hands (maybe 84s-T8s) that opens the button I'd bet flop (tournament player lol) so vicenfish can play this particular turn more aggressively when I make delayed cbets with mediocre hands. What you think ?
Thank you for the content.
I think I explained in the video that I was checking my A4hh here primarily for exploitative reasons. My flop xb and turn xb ranges will each contain some flush draws as part of my standard strategy as well, in order to protect my range on hearts.
re: video making
If its important to you its important to us!
nice vid sauce, one minor question:
10:00: u 3bet A5o on the bb and goes pretty small. I'm surprised you picked this size since you and leoc00 are pretty deep and your range is polar ( not that A5 falls exact into the polar category , but u didn't 3bet 88 in a pretty similar spot ) . what are the reasons behind that?
imho id go smaller on the sb or in position since you probably will have a more linear/playable range .
thanks for the vid!
88 is not a hand that fits in a polarized range. Against PPT top 20% of hands it only has 52.4% equity. That means that you are hardly pushing equity when you 3-bet. Let alone when you play this hand for stacks.
You need a very strong hand in this spot to be pushing so much equity that you can overcome the ICM pressure to pot control. This is why a polarized range should include both very strong value hands and bluffs to balance for when Ben has a strong value hand.
His reason to size so small is likely that he wanted to bluff for cheap as an exploitative play and to 'test the waters' without being balanced.
Andre,
I don't think my play is balanced, it's an exploitative play that wins when the IP player folds to 3bets even a relatively small %.
KJo at 18:00...how do you feel about just shoving preflop? Lasagnaaaa will be forced to call so tight with KuuL being so short and you deny him the opportunity to realize his equity with such a big % of starting hands.
Thought the same thing. Lasagnaa would be forced to call extremely tight by icm.
You don't gain that much by using a push/fold strategy here. What it usually does is that it allows you to shove a wide range and getting only calls from a tight range; for instance only calls from TT-AA, (folding AK!).
You can easily see why this would not be very profitable for Ben. If you would be shoving here with a 50-65% range, not only would you fail to get action versus lasagnaaammm with your strongest hands (if you only get called by TT-AA then AKs and JJ are effectively bluffs since they are massively behind when called, even QQ becomes a flip). But also KuuL can play very effectively with his 4bb stack against a 50-65% range since he has almost no ICM pressure and great pot odds from the blinds.
If Ben doesn't shove his strongest hands, he can't shove as wide anymore and the ICM advantage of being able to steal the pot with a wide range disappears. So it makes far more sense to do what Ben did: tightening his open range and opening most of his hands for a minraise.
Depending on lasagnaaammm's reshoving frequencies you might still want to shove a part of your opening range. Small pocket pairs perform very well as a shove when your opponent needs to have around or below 70% equity to call. Adding some J9s/KQo type hands into a shoving range that mostly consists of small pocket pairs also helps to lower the EV for lasagnaaammm to call with medium pocket pairs.
Game Theory- would you mind explaining why AK would be an unprofitable call here for 24bb's in the bb? Also, any recommendations for a non-tourney player on a good intro video regarding chip ev versus ICM? Thanks.
AKs never gets above 68%, no matter how wide the shoving range is. And ICM can force the minimum equity that you need to call profitably to be higher than that. Also against very wide ranges medium pocket pairs have more equity than AK. For instance against a 100% range, 77 has 66% and AKo has 65%.
You can figure out how much equity you need to call by way of using an ICM calculator (or even by hand if you want to learn the math). Sauce made a nice video about ICM recently:
ICM Intro | Run It Once
Would open limping KJo in that spot be a viable option? It has no effect on our status against the SB and also gives us the choice to limp/jam to increase our fold equity or just limp/call and play our hand in position as well. If the BB ever checks pre we can be pretty certain his range is capped and play very aggressively post flop as well
Nice explanation GT!
I'm going to think about looking more in depth at this spot in part 3, I think I have some ideas for analysis that should be easy to execute and pretty precise.
Overall, I think raising smaller is better here given Lasagna's tendency to play much looser than ICM. I expect him to be calling my shove with a range of around 88+, AQs+, but some % he might just call 44 or A9o and it wouldn't shock me. Given those assumptions I think raise/folding KJo is the better play.
J3o obv your HR is not even close to been accurate if u put random stacks for everyone
GT:
i did not say that 88 is part of a polar range, i used as an example to clarify my point that sauce is indeed not 3betting linear in that spot..
I think you said you would mincall K9o, K7s vs a 10 BB reshove from Kuul from CO vs button, but you can't, you won't be getting the right price especially with ICM in play
You're right, I need him to be shoving around 30% for these to be calls.
Some things are wrong about the J3o simulation.
Its just a pushfold analysis is correct but its an ICM pushfold analysis so both the payouts of the rest of the tournament AND the stacksize distributions matter alot.
1 deep simulation
ICM turns out to be exactly the same range to push.
It is interesting to consider the EV of walking being way better than what these models think though so for that reasoning I think i like a fold. But you cant put random stacksizes into an icm model and expect anything decent to roll out of it.
Quad,
Thanks for correcting me, and see my earlier reply to Steve's comment. You're correct, the other stacksizes matter a ton for which hands I shove in ICM play. J3o is going to be +$EV here.
Even without checking my got feeling tells me that you are right cause the pressure is not on Sauce or the other guy ICMwise, so it makes it (at least from my inexpert ICM eyes) a profitable shove (cause of course any J is fine to shove there from EV point of view).
@gametheory It seems that lasagna folding 97%+ is a pretty good result for our button gameplan there. Making more money with our tt-qq/ak isn't very important when we have the opportunity to make him fold so often.
No chance he folds 97% there. He made a couple of huge mistakes at this FT in regards to ICM. These mistakes will hurt sauce ALOT and spread out the money to the ones who folded. So if its anywhere close in EV you need to take the one where the other guy cant spite it out of just being dumb/too agro in these type of spots.
forhayley
First off, getting 97% folds from one player doesn't add much when the other player is going all-in over 30%. It is all about combined fold equity.
Secondly, since Lasagnaaammm can only call a shove with TT-AA, he can't be reshoving very wide here either. If he would shove or 3-bet significantly wider than that over a minraise, it becomes a dominated strategy for Ben to shove his strongest hands. That is why I advocated a mixed strategy of both shoves and minraises. Leaving out the top of your shoving range isn't gonna affect his calling range by much.
So against players like Lasagnaaammm that presumably shove much wider than optimal my advice would be to minraise with 99-AA,AQ-AK,AJs and shove the rest of the top 50% of hands. Against more passive players you can go with minraising most of your range since the ICM advantage postflop will let you realize a large fraction of the pot postflop.
It is also important to keep variance down and slowly grind your way up, if Ben starts taking many flips the shortstacks will eliminate and he will play less hands as a chipleader and/or lose his chiplead. You want to be playing as much hands as possible with a chiplead and keep all shortstacks in since their presence will keep the ICM pressure on the medium stacks.
The A2o @13 mins you 2.75ishx as the sb has 6bb etc but in reality are you not 2x ing here with the top of your range thus opening your self to a 3bj from the bb ( who you know to be good/aggro) when the sb folds as he knows that he can probably remove 77+ AT+ from your range as you are more likely to induce with them ?
Thanks
PS More MTT videos from you would be awesome
Hey Chase,
I'm opening 2.75x with range here, my plan was that 2.75x was the best raise size given the stacks and payouts. I would never have a 2x/folding range, so it seems like raising 2x with anything is worse than raising bigger because 2x gives the BB a better price on calling. I didn't raise bigger than 2.75 because I do raise/fold some hands versus the BB, and I'd have to narrow my range considerably if my open size was to 3-5 BB; I prefer to raise a wider range to 2.75.
I don't see the added benefit of making it 2.75x. A player like Lasagnaaammm will just be shoving even more over your opens if you make it bigger. Flatting is not very profitable for him due to ICM.
Hey Ben, great video as always, nice finish too (y). Was just curious about two things - firstly, are you walking on a treadmill as you're reviewing / do you do that while playing too? Second, I've spanned cyberspace looking for a tutorial on holdem resources with no result (unless i learn how to speak French or Russian first that is); would you be willing to possibly make a brief one for us on here ? It really does seem like its a monumental tool to have for a tournament player and would be great to have a wizard such as yourself to teach us how to use it :D
Gambino,
As you can probably see from the mistakes I've been making using HRC, I'm not a wizard with it. Hopefully someone from RIO's MTT roster will make a tutorial on it at some point.
Chidwick already did it
Thank-you both vm. You're a wizard in your own right Ben (8
P.s. I was genuinely curious about the walking shtick ..just saying.
At 14 minutes, what are you doing with your nutted range? AA, AK etc? Are you really making it almost 3x with those hands as well? I think this just looks weak for the bb since he is good enough to see what you are trying to achieve.
I'm raising that size with my range.
Ben - on the A2o button 2.75x
You say your reason for this is to make the 6.5bb sb stack know that he has no folding equity with a rejam. There is no chance he perceives that he has any fold equity to you vs a min open in this spot. I would say that would not occur to him until 9-10bb+, and even then many players are never folding any 2 of their opening range until a little bigger than that.
You say you would do this with your range, but I think it looks weak and transparent, and we must assume lasanga picked up on this shoving as weak as he did.
I like your thoughtfulness of preflop sizings; nice vid.
I don't see the logic why would you gain more from KuuL by opening 56222 vs 40k if you're raise-calling him off both times with exactly the same range? However 56k risks a lot more when both KuuL and lasagna decide to shove. This is just an out of the blue hunch but I would guess lasagna shoves over KuuL something like 55+/ATo+?
lasagna has to play pretty straightforward honest here. Without going into specific ranges I assume he has a shoving range consisting of hands that don't play well postflop but have clearly +EV ship (Ax/some pairs) which get even better price to shove over nearly 3x open. I'd assume lasagna's calling range is like 89s+ or two broadway cards, which are getting odds to call regardless of your sizing. Point being, with KuuL's supershort stack it's not like lasagna is going to able to see more flops OOP and start calling you down light. Idk what you think lasagna's bottom of the range for calling a minraise would be, but hands like 79o flopping Q93o have a very hard time getting to showdown on many runouts so it's easier to just fold pre.
However, an upside for betting bigger I'd guess is that you gain more from c-betting when he elects to call like KJo and check-fold on a blank flop. Although I don't know how much good it will do on average because his calling range is probably around 50% vs. your opening range.
FWIW, not sure if I'm a fan of lasagnas style at all esp. @ 24:15. Having to minraise-fold hands like KJo, A7o in his shoes just seems like burning money. I prefer a limp-strategy in that spot.
@29:00 I guess you don't have 5-bet bluffing range since I think A5s is "the" hand to do it. That said, absolutely dislike the idea of burning A5s' equity on a 3b/fold just like you said in the video.
Like your cash game videos a lot, but I think your MTT game is a little tacky. Would prefer to see cash game vids from you as it's your strong ground.
LSD,
Game theory, Seth and Forhayley make some good points about the Kuul/Lasagna hand earlier on in the thread, and use math to back up their claims. Their claims differ a lot from your own, and your ranges disagree strongly with ICM models, so I think you should start by explaining why ICM is innaccurate in this spot, show why, and then show why my play is poor.
Huh?
This is from GT, basically saying the same thing?
"I don't see the added benefit of making it 2.75x. A player like Lasagnaaammm will just be shoving even more over your opens if you make it bigger. Flatting is not very profitable for him due to ICM."
GT is saying the same thing for different reasons, and the reasons are what matter.
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