$10k Pineapple OFC World Championship (Part 1)
Posted by Jen Shahade
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Lot of fun watching you play Jason & Marek 3 handed. Great play Jen and congrats on the win. It's such a good learning experience to listen to you explain your thought process about your own hands and also theirs. I think I detect some small differences since your initial vids. You're getting more agro!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it- it was a lot of fun to make this series. I consciously play a little more aggro 3-handed because we can justify riskier decisions when we have more information.
I look forward to the FT in the next one......after that would you consider doing one on the 2 - 7 variation? They've added that to the Tonybet cash tables now
Yes, I definitely plan to get started on a 2-7 vid. Go ahead and inbox me if you have a screenshot of a really interesting spot you want me to consider.
Did u tell Jason after his Fantasyland (where he could make trip4s on top) that he did it wrong, to get him to a psychologic point?? ;-)
Nope, I didn't. That is not my style and I didn't notice it right away anyway. I heard on twitter.
Jen-
in hand 1 i dont understand your need to average the hand values vs each player? i think that only makes the picture blurrier.
mathematically the best way to approach the hand is to add the line battle results you have with each player plus your royalties times (one from each player). The result is similar, but it breaks the hand down into its constituent parts over which you have control.
Q up top risks:
current situation: -5 w jason, +1 (probably closer to -0.5?!) w btn, 0 royalties. if we foul here we are -6 for each player, so we are risking 8 points
Q up top seeks to gain:
(+5? from villain regarding lines) and 17 royalties
v jason we gain 17 royalties and maybe go to -2?! on line war
so in sum we seek to gain 21 from btn, and 20 from jason, so we are risking 8 to win so well need to improve ~16-16.3% of time in order to justify our gamble.
hit 4 outer and not 5 outer: 14.131% = 1- (not hitting 4 or 5 outer + hitting just 4 outer w/o 5 outer +hitting just 5 outer w/o 4 outer
6.154
3.077
4.900=14.131%.
so on the face of it its not a gamble. but tweak the current value w either jason or btn by 1 point, and make us -1 w jason when we hit and we have enough to justify a gamble. if you have input on how my estimates of (-2) w jason's hand in the lines (i figured we are -1 w lines on avg, but some % still scooped)
if you're right w your estimate of 16%-20% then its an immediate gamble. but sway fantasyland to 8 points instead of 10 ( i noticed a switch from 10 a point in cash to 8 a point in this vid, coincidence its a tournament?)...and we need 17.8% so its really close, probably a close nit up spot.. interesting, my gut would be to always gamble for it here w such a trash hand, instructive!
18min: you say you should play J up top and not middle? i understand the reasoning for J up top, but isnt it more important that only 1 AKQ is out and it makes it easy to put all AKQ up top and maximize our chances for FL? if btn had 2 or we were further along in the hand, more akq were dead i think your argument holds more weight, but that means were going to have to put an AKQ in middle so if we 2 pair middle (with that card) and make our J up top, were missing out on FL. you were one to say for elegance earlier you liked another play, and J in middle seems to put all cards in their pace. unless you think drawing a pat pair is so likely here. can you expound on why you think J better up top?
39min
jasons decsion to play A up top Q in middle. you noted AK is beating you up top, but the Q in middle also gives him more outs. given you only have 15 points, and if he plays to scoop you, that gives him 12, so hes risking FL for a max of 3 points vs you and you still have to play v the Land hand. you got there right after i typed it.
45 min: you now have 12 points, him fouling is a 50% bonus to your stack. just grinding you.--well the QQ blew my theory out of the water i guess?! it is quite a bit better, to play QQ up to, just i think it went against his plan when he showed he wanted to put Q mid Q back.
great vid! wish it was a bit more illustrative/ or had a slide on the side you could reference and we could see when talking about hitting the double draw or the like.
Yeah, for me it's easier to average the two point values because I think it results in fewer mistakes when I'm doing the math in my brain. But whatever works for you!
The jack is probably close, q-a diamond we need for the flush anyway. It's important to be aware of how nice a consolation it is to make jacks or tens up top and most players under-utilize this.
Re; A vs. Q up top It took me 3 minutes of reasoning out loud to come to agree with Jason's set :)
Indeed, I easily could have made this a four part series by pausing, overlaying math slides and then replaying. Glad you're enjoying it!
jen did you conciously change your value of fantasyland for this tournament or is it an overall theme of your recent gameplay?
Hey, in response to your question about whether my value of FL changed, I've always felt it is worth a little less 3-handed. Because the two villains have more info about cards to come, and probably make big hands more and foul a little less consequently.
Great video thank you for being the only pro to make ofc videos but i have a bit of critique.
1- it is not clear QQ up top was the play for Jason you and rengon think it is and both defend it as the best move, the other option was quite attractive as well, a very nice 4flush with QQQ on middle still has a lot of chances of getting to fl and less chances of failing on the other hand QQQ in a middle is the nuts most of the time,though i can’t quantify this neither can you.
2-looks like you always play with the goal of getting the most fl yet we score with points in this game so please try to notice the difference and/or accept that the best play is unknown a lot of times and don’t call any moves standard.
Thank you very much for the video.
@ 59:15 Jason had 888KK/333JJ/T54. You suggested that he do 333JJ/888T5/KK4. Does he get to remain in FL the next round this way? I thought to remain in FL you need at least a boat in the middle.
you dont go to the land w any middle royalties. the boat/boat stay went out of style at least 18 months ago. he would not get to remain in the land w jens set, it is just risking 2 points to scoop much more often which it should as T hi never wins the top
scooping is worth 3 points what about two points we give up when our opponent faults and when we fail to scoop anyway our bottom full house is small so is not a clear cut with AA is close we should never go for it with QQ, no reason to go for the underdog
Ok, so why did Jason play it as such putting T54 on top?
I’m defending Jasons play, here is a point breakdown
888JJ/333KK/T54 gets 6+12+0=18 royalty points.
When we win both bottom and middle but loose top we score 19 points we will scoop when opponent faults then we will get another 1+1+1 +3 points(3 points awarded for scooping) we will score total of 24 points.
888JJ/333T5/KK gets 6+2+8=16 royalty points we will be more likely to scoop so add 1+1+1+3=6 points then we figure to get 22 points altogether when scooping is successful .
on the other hand if we fail to scoop we will likely score 17 points we will some times lose a street as our hand has no locks,namely small full house on bottom small set on middle KK up top will lose to AA some time since all the aces are available to our opponents.Every time we don’t scoop we score 2 points less. So as you can see putting KK up top is not the clear move it might depend on our opponents if they are aggressive and more likely to fault should go for 888JJ/333KK/T54 to maximize our points when opponents do fail or make a hand we can not scoop either way.
on very rare occasions when our opponent makes a monster hand our hand is more protected against a scoop with full house on middle.
So i don’t think Jason make a mistake here but i think he is a weak ofc player for playing 3flush/QQ/QQ instead of 4flush/QQQ and of course for mis setting a fl among other things.
hope i explained my position here open to critic
I don't think you can call anyone a weak player for making mistakes in OFC, especially in live games. If you watch my vids, you'll see I made plenty of mistakes, even with the luxury of taking some time between hands at home to think things over!
Back to the video: I agree Jason's spot is really close here (which I also indicated in the video)
Here are some approximate numbers (as you can see, it's way tougher to figure out the value of the scoop set, because it depends on the accuracy of these numbers I threw up):
Jason's way= 18 royalty pts+1 for the win (almost always)
Say we foul 20% though, in that case he gets an extra 5 points so the total value of playing it his way is just under 20 (for the times his boat in the back does not win)
The other way
6+2+8= 16 (royalty points)
Foul 20%
50% we scoop though they don't foul
70%= we add 6 – +4.3
20% they save= +.2
6%= they win =-.06
4%= they scoop- -.24
Total ~ 20
[edited this to try to make the scoop set numbers a little more thorough]
Ok, so T54 is the more aggressive option is what you're saying. Got it.
Also Jen, I must say your explain yourself very well and even though I just started playing this game, I could understand your logic clearly. Just the right amount of detail and emotions mixed in the video. You need to two things now a) Part 2 b) Record live sessions of your running up the freeroll money on Tonybet.
Detail and emotion, that's an amazing compliment :) Part II should be out later this month.
I found your commentary in the OFC Cash game video funny because I think you think people are like you in playing the most optimal even in cent games. But I take that back I am probably underestimating you
Hi! OFC is a lot like chess in that it's usually best to assume your opponent will play well. There are some fun exceptions, but exploitative play is pretty limited. That's why grinding a bunch of hands at micro-stakes is v. useful even if your opponents are making a lot of mistakes. Even playing against a very weak AI is better than nothing, though if you watch my 3-handed video, you'll see that the Pineapple Poker app took that theory to its limit :)
Hey Jen, any indication as to when the next video is being released?
Hey, pretty sure it's coming in the next week or so! No spoilers :)
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