$0.50/$1 Live Session on Ignition
Posted by Tyler Forrester
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Even tho im heavily advocating getting less live play videos at the site, its really refreshing too see you in other format, Tyler.
Thanks screamdustry! I've been reading the comments as well and was a little hesitant to shoot a live play video. I'm stoked you liked it!
I'd been hoping you'd make some Ignition videos! Seeing your approach to these anonymous and higher rake games gave me some interesting things to think about that I'd not considered before, and I'd personally like to see more videos like this to further see how you adapt to these kinds of games and players, especially with some of the exploits you talked about employing. It's very interesting to see the discrepancies in strategy between this and (for instance) 500nlz.
Thanks for the feedback untitled!
awesome! glad to see some ignition content, while this site is great i feel alot of the strategy doesn't apply to ignition as much as i hoped so this is great too see and hopefully you will do more in the future
Thanks staysharp! Appreciate the kind words :) I will look to do some higher stakes videos as well.
it would also be great to see maybe a 2 or 4 table video of 400-1k or something along those lines, with the 4 table max for cash games it kinda forces everyone to play higher stakes than they really should be but there are still alot of fish and i would like to see how a stronger player than myself adapts to those games. anyways thanks for the ignition content
Watching zoom video on ignition is like playing super mario with dosbox on modern PC.
Graphics is horrible, the whole thing is lagging but you remember how great this game was.
Barely an elite video, guess it should be available to "essential" guys I mean.
But thanks for efforts Tyler.
It does make me pine for pokerstars some days, but its really nice to have home and not live out of a suitcase :).
Thanks for the feedback S.M.S., I hope you find more joy from some of my other videos.
Hi Tyler. At 3/6 NL on ignition how much do you factor, if at all, the rake into your decisions (flatting preflop, defending the blinds, vpip in general)? the rake cap is the same, but it gets hit nearly every hand (at least at plo). I think any pot 80$ or greater gets rake capped 6 handed. I'm not the best at math, so I don't know how to factor the rake into decisions with any real accuracy. Would appreciate any thoughts on this, and thanks for the content!
It factors into all of my decisions. At 3/6NL Ignition, I'm losing 32bb/100 for every hand that sees the flop in rake. At 2.5/5 zoom, I'm only losing 12bb/100 (after rakeback) for every hand that sees the flop. As you can imagine losing 2.5x as much money to rake heavily effects strategy.
17:30 vs the 3.5x btn raise.
What did you mean by "the GTO frequencies drop way down." Does that just mean that you can defend substantially less from the BB than vs 2x-3x? You made it sound like you could exploit his raise sizing in some way, but exactly how isn't obvious to me. Maybe 3.5x raises can afford to fold to the 3bet much less than say a min raise since 3.5x should be calling any time they can lose less than 3.5bb on the hand where as the min raise can only call if he's losing less than 2x overall on the hand.
If he raises largely, we need to 3-bet/Call from the big blind less often to make a hand indifferent to raising. Therefore if we 3-bet the same number of times as when he raised to 2x, he would make less money when raising to 3.5x. Therefore he needs a tighter range when opening to 3.5x to make my GTO strategy 3-bet less. Most players raise a similar number when raising either to 2x or 3.5x so he loses money with the bigger raise.
Could you please explain the, "they should be calling any time they lose less than 3.5bb"?
If the 3.5bb is already in the pot, shouldn't it based on anytime they lose less than what the 3b amount is? I.e. If 3b is to 10.5bb shouldn't the call be based on if they make more than the additional 7bb that has to be put in?
I was talking relative to the initial open. In HEM, raise/folding to 3.5x shows up at -350bb/100. Any time you have a hand that, when facing a 3bet, is losing less than -350bb/100 you should not fold to the 3bet.
Great video Tyler!
As a U.S. player it is nice to see some video content on the games I play in. Would love to see some more like this!
Thanks for comment, Douggyfr3sh!
At 00:30 with TT: did you mean to cbet 1/7 pot ?
Yes, I've been experimenting with small cbet sizes :)
Hi,
Is KQo fold at around 7:30 better than calling/3b as we perceive utg limp to be a loose fun player and sb likely squeezes him lighter?
Overall great vid and nice to see live vid for a change. High rake structure explanations were also good by that we are talking about 4-5bb/5%max and lower (2-3bb/5%) is not gonna change our game by that much, correct?
Should we just use r/f when sb vs bb in a higher rake game?
Keep them coming and thanks Tyler!
@KQo My experience has been that most players raise relatively tightly from the SB in this situation, so KQo wouldn't be a good 3-bet. This could change over time...
@rake would raise/fold from the sb/bb as even in a 2-3bb rake environment the rake plays into our limping strategy. For example at 2/4 on stars, we'd lose immediately 20 cents on every limp from the sb. This forced some positive hands negative and other hands performed better as a raise because we didn't see a flop everytime. This applies even more pertinently to 4-5bb/100 rake.
In my opinion, i'd love to see mid to "high" stakes normal cash tables played on Ignition rather than Zone. Zone just doesn't feel like a good format to really take from especially when anonymous. I'm not picky, so I'm atleast happy to see some sort of Ignition play from the likes of yourself, but I think me and most would love to see that normal table grind! Thanks Tyler! :D
more ignition!!
Thanks thoo tyler been waiting patiently for this :D
Thanks NightVayne, I appreciate your comment. I see what I can do. :)
Hey Tyler
At the beginning of the vid you said you wouldnt be calling at all IP and would just 3bet your whole range? I guess it has something to do with the rake but I dont really understand why? Would you never be calling your suited broadways vs utg-co?
1:22 what is the 4 dollar cap you mention?
2:40 you fold 33 from utg, is this still a fold when we have 2-3 fish at the table? With 1 fish in the bb.
In Sauce's vid he was really tight on the btn, do you agree that we should be folding stuff like J9o,Q8o? At lower stakes it just seems like ppl fold the bb a lot more than they should.
7:10 whats the weakest suited ace you open in utg in these games? With a fish in the bb are you still opening all of them? Or if the players behind you are all realtively passive?
thanks
@3-betting IP I'd 3-bet the suited broadways, rather than flat them. It turns out either option is roughly the same value.
@Rake Bovada games are capped at 5%, $4 dollars/hand with basically no rake back.
@33 Yes, when I'm paying 5% uncapped rake it is. Its slightly positive paying 2bb /100, paying 7-8bb/100 is going to be negative.
@J9o, Q8o are going to be breakeven hands on the button. If the population does fold more of course we can raise them. These zoom games would be have the highest chance of this occuring :)
@A7ss, You could definitely open wider with a fish in bb or too tight players behind
Last question, I swear.
At about 17:40 you stab T7 with no equity. Do you think at small/micro stakes it's fine to just stab whenever someone (non regular) checks back?
Also, great video btw
No worries, I hope you've started winning again :)
Yeah its kind of a dumb exploit, but most small stakes players--even the regs-- overfold to the delayed cbet.
Haha thanks! Yeah I was just running really really badly :)
Awesome :), I'm glad you came through it. That's easily the hardest part about being a pro.
Hey Tyler,
Again I would love to see more zone live play, but I was also thinking it would be really great to see a theory video discussing the math behind how rake effects constrict our preflop ranges. If this has already been done you can disregard, but I haven't seen any videos like this on the site. I think it would be interesting to see for example how often SB and BB have to both fold for BTN to open a marginal hand in high rake games compared to lower rake.
Hi Tyler,
enjoy your videos alot,
There was also a video of Ben Sulsky a couple of days ago when he was playing nl50 zoom on stars talking about his adjustments to the high rake. Thanks alot for those kind of videos.
I liked your preflop approach by having a mostly 3bet strategy facing an openraise.
I played in highly raked casino live games with 5% rake and 7bbs cap.
I would says it's around 12bb/100 rake. Most online lowstakes or microstakes have similar rake structures between 7-12bb/100.
I have following assumption:
If we play games with 12bb/100 rake and the regulars don't have a significant edge over each other. We need at least 1 recreational player with a losingrate of -72bb/100 to make all the regs break even from the rake in a 6max game?
6 players rake 12bb*6 = 72bb/100 rake per table.
In theory there must be a big difference by approaching these games, cause 5% (cap 7bbs) is 10% of the winnings up to a 140bb pot.
Is my approach correct? we want to win as many unraked preflop pots as possible and we want to play more pots that exceed 140bbs because thats where the rake is capped and minimize the pots between 5-140bbs.
I'm not sure... maybe it's a mistake by 3betting more hands and getting involved in too many pots with hands that don't have enough equity vs. villains range for ending up with profit after taking away 10% of the winnings.
A theory video about preflop/postflop adjustments in highly raked games would be awesome.
keep up the great work, and have a nice day <3
This deserves a longer discussion than this post:
1) Strategies that make more money from folds become more valuable (we only pay more rake if we are called). This makes three-betting more valuable than cold-calling with all other variables held equal. It also makes bigger betsizes more valuable compared to small bet strategies (I missed this in the video).
2) Trying to make the pot bigger to "get out" of the rake is a mistake, because all you are actually doing is putting in too much money with marginal hands. Putting in too much money with marginal hands is a large GTO mistake.
I'm going to focus more time on this idea in my next video. I'll show you how to calculate changes in winrate based on rake structure for individual hands.
The nerd in me is excited for the rake video
Haha I wrote the code yesterday. I can assure you it's very nerdy!
Went back and watched this again after your rake simulation video and I'm finding it some of the most useful content on the site, so thank you Tyler. Would love to see more of these kind of videos. It's fascinating to see how significant rake considerations are, I'm glad to see that some of the top guys are debunking the myths that it doesn't affect strat too much.
I'm finding it fairly interesting that a lot of the SSNL guys have downwards trending redlines, with most arguing that it's somewhat incentivised in tighter, softer games. I've found with the rake structure the opposite is incentivised, with trying to take as many pots down preflop, and exploiting villains tendencies on flops and turns. Which leads to a positive redline.
One question Tyler, with rake considerations should we be changing our 4b sizing? Obviously the bigger it gets we need it to be a bit more polarised, but I'm not sure how important it is. Against regs who try and abuse your LP wider steals (In SSNL I may add) is it better to use better blocking type hands to balance your value, or if they are getting a bit out of line could we justify 4betting hands like 55? Don't have the preflop solver so I'm abit clueless in this respect.
Big love for all the hard work you put in Tyler.
Hi Zen,
Awesome post!
@Redline The rake actually makes the redline negative rather than the reverse. You pay most of your rake in nonshowdown pots, making the average redline, -rake/100 hands. In small stakes, the average redline is -8bb/100ish because of the rake.
@4-betting A 4-bet at 28bbs is pot-commiting, so it needs to be smaller than this. For hands, blockers are preferred when folding to the 5-bet, so A9o is a strong 4-bet than 55. The other issue is that we compare the EV of two options, so A9o: 1EV 4-bet > 0EV fold-to-3-bet whereas 55: 1EV 4-bet < 3EV call-3-bet.
Great video! I would love to see more of these
Thanks Jonathan!
Nice video. Really excited to get some Ignition content. Please keep it coming!
You got it, Brokenstars!
In PIO spots that play as a mix, sometimes PIO has us taking lines that have a negative value attached to it. Can you explain this?
Example: Pio has us raising all in on the turn with KQo at about a 50% frequency, but shows values as:
Fold: +1.7
Call: +2.3
Raise all in: -1.5
Why would we ever raise all in? Why wouldn't we play this as a call every time?
Thanks
Hmm without seeing the sim,
1)my guess is that your strategy hasn't converged so its still a long way from equilibrium
2) Differences between -1.5, +1.7, and 2.3 are from an extremely large pot (10,000 chips) where due to rounding the strategies are really very very close in value.
Here is another example of what I am talking about. You might be able to do part of a lesson video about this concept.
There are different EV's attached to each AT combo based on the sizing we make it. ATss plays best as a bet of 54 (+5.2) yet Pio suggests we use ALL sizings available at some frequency.
Why?
Pio only gives us an approximate gto strategy :) Since it is an approximation sometimes both the EVs and the strategies are going to be different than GTO.
On the setup screen you should see how far away from GTO your strategy is. The closer it gets to GTO, the less mixing you'll see between two strategies of different value.
super appreciative of the Ignition content.
Just want to echo what some others have said above, please try making a live table play video of midstakes (200NL-600NL) next time, would love to hear your thoughts and approach to those games where you do start working with some information, while still very minimal overall.
Thank you for this!
Thanks Hustlehard! I love hearing your thoughts. The next video has been shot and includes about 25 minutes of live play at 400/600NL on Ignition :). Enjoy!
Tyler is just the best always. Great to listen to anything u have to say. I always learn so much. Thank u
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