TPTK+NFD+Blockers , How would you play it?
Posted by iknowrexkwondo
Posted by
iknowrexkwondo
posted in
Low Stakes
TPTK+NFD+Blockers , How would you play it?
HJ: $204.32
CO: $200
BN: $392.50
SB: $166.50
BB: $143.55 (Hero)
CO: $200
BN: $392.50
SB: $166.50
BB: $143.55 (Hero)
Reg playing 24/15, not any specific reads on him
Preflop
($1.50)
(5 Players)
Hero was dealt
K
K
A
3
HJ calls $1, CO raises to $4.50, BN folds, SB folds, Hero calls $3.50, HJ folds
HJ calls $1, CO raises to $4.50, BN folds, SB folds, Hero calls $3.50, HJ folds
I elect to just flat pre here, don't want to bloat the pot with this hand OOP.
Some may tell me to 3bet it, but since i'm such a nit i choose to play it small and
see what we flop.
Some may tell me to 3bet it, but since i'm such a nit i choose to play it small and
see what we flop.
Flop
($10.50)
Q
A
7
(2 Players)
Hero checks,
CO bets $7,
Hero calls $7
Beautiful flop with nfd and tptk. I was feeling like donking this in case he'd elect to check back (56% cb), however i check and he cbets.
Would some prefer to checkraise at this point?
Would some prefer to checkraise at this point?
Turn
($24.50)
T
(2 Players)
Hero checks,
CO bets $17,
Hero calls $17
Pretty good turn card for us since he should'nt have any connected kings here too often.
To make my story more credible, now would be a good time to check raise.
What stoped me from doing it was the semiawkward stacksizes, and i thought
that i could just checkraise any blank rivers in any case. If he checks back on
a blank river i still might have some small SDvalue. If the river would flush
i'd probably lead out ½ or a little bigger to him from checking back.
To make my story more credible, now would be a good time to check raise.
What stoped me from doing it was the semiawkward stacksizes, and i thought
that i could just checkraise any blank rivers in any case. If he checks back on
a blank river i still might have some small SDvalue. If the river would flush
i'd probably lead out ½ or a little bigger to him from checking back.
River
($58.50)
5
(2 Players)
Hero checks,
CO bets $37,
Hero raises to $115.05,
CO calls $78.05
So here i follow through with my plan OTT -
Final Pot
CO has
J
K
T
7
Hero has
K
K
A
3
CO
wins $281.39
- and happen
to shove into the nuts. That's life.
Please tell me how you'd like to play the hand as i feel that
there are many ways to aproach this one.
Thanks! :)
to shove into the nuts. That's life.
Please tell me how you'd like to play the hand as i feel that
there are many ways to aproach this one.
Thanks! :)
Loading 13 Comments...
My standard would be to 3-bet this hand pre though calling is also fine. OTF I don't like a x/r since I think you would be defining your range too much and folding out a lot of worse fd's. X/r'ing will definitely show a profit but I think you also need to include stronger hands like this into your calling range.
OTT it gets a little tricky. Though you block KK I think he's opening pre with all of his connected kings given the situation. So you're still up against the nuts some of the time as well as sets and possibly AQxx he's likely going to value bet. And of course he will likely have some bluffs in his range too.
OTR I think you're basically trying to get him off from sets (and occasionally you'll run into the nuts). I think your line is pretty credible though I think many would raise the nuts here OTT. So I would like to have a little bit of faith in villain's capabilities of folding 2nd or 3rd nuts before bluffing.
With that said I liked the way you played your hand overall.
3b or flat is fine, need more info on opponent imo. As a default would prob 3b this pre with 100bb or less, and flat more often deep.
On the flop I'm x/r'ing a lot of the time in order to get folds from a million hands that have a ton of equity against us but are not relatively strong on this board. underestimating the value of fold equity in PLO is (imo) the biggest mistake that most players make while learning the game. Certainly we have nut outs and may have the best hand, and calling can't be bad. But villain is going to have a ton of combos of one pair hands that have 40% equity against us on the flop, and we'll have no idea whether or not he's improved on most turn cards. Would feel better about calling this is villain was particularly nitty, but most TAGs should have a wide range for iso'ing and cbetting this flop.
On the turn I'd likely x/r against a good player and call a bad player. Without a read I'm not sure which is best. Good players will be barreling 2pr and sets on the turn and I'd want to x/r hoping to combine my FD equity with my blockers and get villain to fold some of his non-nut SD value. Bad players will xback the med strength portion of their range not wanting to get raised off of their boat/flush/gutter outs and their double barrel range will be too strong to try and bluff.
I don't really like the river bluff. It's unlikely villain is going for thin value with two pair after all of the FD misses, unless we look particularly stationy (ie like a fish). So his betting range is going to be sets and straights and bluffs (that we're likely still ahead of) so I'm just not sure we're getting enough folds to make this profitable. I really don't like bluff raising with blockers on the river in low stakes PLO, as I think most players expect you to raise those hands on the turn for value and protection and thus give you less credit for having the hand when you call the turn and raise blank rivers.
Lots of decisions points that can go several ways, and I think it's an interesting hand for reflecting on game plan and such. I'll give my take on it.
Preflop
You don't have to 3B, but you should consider it. There's an openlimper with a very weak range, and there's a CO raiser who is likely isolating with a decently wide range. This is a much better spot for you to 3B than, say, an UTG raiser + a BTN coldcaller. But if you wan't to call, that's perfectly fine.
Flop
You flop very good, but not quite enough to happily stack off with an SRP of 13 against a TAG. Since Villain c-bets a tad tight, I like slotting this hand in the leading range. We don't mind if he folds, and we don't mind if he calls.
You chose to c/c, which works, too. However, I would like that better on a board where we have little fold equity + don't want to stack off. On the given board I would slightly prefer leading, and I would balance that out by also donking weaker hands. When we have a donking range, we need some hands that can donk and continue on lots of turns, and this hand is a good candidate.
In general, keep in mind that having donking range is good for you. Especially against players who know when to take free cards. Otherwise, you give Villain the opportunity to bet or check however he wants, and with little implied odds for you when you c/c OOP. He is tight after all, and you can't expect him to spazz out once you make your hand. You have lots of good turn cards, so don't be afraid to lead with a hand this strong.
Turn
Not a good turn, and as played, I think you have to c/c once more and play the river. You can't stack off, and you don't want to bet-fold. C/c makes most sense.
River
As played, I check and hope for a free showdown. I don't think bluffing by lead or c/r is a good idea, since 1) A tight Villain has bet at every opportunity so far, and 2) You don't rep much strength. You are probably not slowplaying many straights on the turn, and Villain probably realizes this. Check to let your hand win the occasional free showdown, and fold when he bets.
could you please explain why " UTG raiser + a BTN coldcaller" is better spot to sqz w\ our hand, rather than in particular spot? (I hope I inderstood you right)
I wrote the opposite. "This is a better spot than ..." (straightforward range-strength thinking).
I actually would've played this hand the exact same way. It's the perfect bluff hand to have in our x/c turn, x/r river range (most KK/JJs aren't able to x/c turn with as much equity and would prefer to raise right away).
I personally think that 3betting preflop would be a mistake. AKK3 suited to the K is only a powerful preflop hand if you're short stacked or 75-100bb with a maniacal 3/4bettor.
It plays poorly postflop this deep in a 3b pot, and there are MANY hands I'd rather have after 3betting.
At the same time, it's an excellent "set mining" hand... yes, it's more than that, but AKKh3h derives a ton of it's value from the potential for set over set and set over other stuff :)
Because of that, we're happy to encourage a 3 way pot, giving ourselves a better chance to stack someone when we flop top set.
For me, preflop, flop, and turn are 100% standard, and I like the river play, as I said above.
Well played hand, iknowrex.
Quick question: do we actually flat ott with KJ? what is the purpose of slowplaying?
Occasionally slowplaying the nut straight OTT makes us harder to play against, and makes it easier for us to play the rest of our c/c range. It also lets us c/r bluff rivers credibly, like here.
I've thought more about the hand, and I really don't like my plan of leading much today (note to self: think more before posting). A question: Should we have much of a leading range at all in this spot?
Zen, I agree that a flop lead isn't great here... he calls or folds with any dominated hands and raises to get AI with hands that have us in bad shape (or with bluffs).
As far as leading ranges in general: You likely know from watching my videos that I don't have much of a leading range in HU pots, though I'd like to add more of it to my game.
On AQ7, I don't think we should be leading much, and I am fairly confident that we shouldn't have any leading range if we 3bet all AAxx combos preflop.
Hey Phil I read you said you couldn't think of a leading range heads up here. What do you think of leading with AQxx hands (maybe with intentions of 3b-shipping if we have any reasonable draw as a back up). Or 77 w/back up draw. Specially if we have the nut flush draw against opponents who check back a ton A hi flops with ax or weaker draws wouldn't we want to lead here? Also are we to deep to lead/ship bare AQxx and 77xx hands here?
Is the reason you don't have a lead range because it is too hard to balance our bet/call range oop? Lead shipping naked aq and 77 doesnt make much sense sgainst a good opponent on second though. Which is why we can't lead heads up deep stacked here? Villain can basically rep Aaxx and barrel us into a tough spot (since we can rarely ever have Aaxx here). Can't we just throw in the nut flush draw as a b/c c/c to make barreling us off the turn more difficult and less profitable as a semi-bluff w/weak draws or is that not a big enough range to disguise our hand well enough against a good hand reader. These plays have worked for me against bad players but I have a feeling from reading some of your posts they wouldn't against higher caliber competition.
This is a very interesting general topic, and I'm looking forward to future discussion about this and similar spots. Generalizing, we can say that pruning the game tree (e.g. by eliminating a leading range HU) does remove a lot of complexity from the game and makes future streets easier to play well. Pruning the OOP game plan harder than the IP game plan makes a lot of sense, since playing OOP is hard.
I just read a "philosophical" article by Phil Newall on the topic, and I recommend it:
http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue104/phillip-newall-pruning-game-tree-life.php
i agree zen i was thinking the same exact think. I find my oop leads to me more feel based and random. when i'm thinking about a specific reason or opponent(s) i'm playing against (ie: villain checks back A-hi boards often and I don't want this flop checked through and/or i want to induce a bluff or bluff certain boards myself). I think it would be near IMPOSSIBLE to discuss the different hands and board textures to but like you said generalizing different oop leading scenarios would be interesting. What we would need to put together first is the thought process. What constitutes a good leading situations and a situation in which leading is not the best option? What are different opponent tendencies that would make us decide one was or another? How well of a hand reader our opponents are and if balancing should even be a consideration against certain opponents? I can prob go on for a while but thats a start lol you get the point im sure
Interesting article by the way thx for the recommendation!
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