RIO PokerJuice/Odds Oracle Analyses

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RIO PokerJuice/Odds Oracle Analyses

RIO PokerJuice/Odds Oracle Analyses (publicly viewable gdoc)

I'm in a creative mood. Being excited about new software modeling tools has a lot to do with that. I want to play ball, bounce ideas back and forth, and explore new tools and analysis sharing technology in depth.

To boost fruitful discussion I have therefore decided to write up some analyses snipped from RIO videos and threads, using the PokerJuice/Odds Oracle combo, and sharing it with you. Making it an analysis resources doc of sorts. 

Starting with a river bluffcatching spot hand from Di Dang's latest video. I wrote up a simple analysis illustrating basic PokerJuice analysis and sharing functionality:

1. Di Dang River Bluffcatching Spot - Feb 9 2014

If you want to explore these tools with me, feel free to use this doc as a source of information and inspiration. To get us started, I will x-post this in Ph33rox' recent thread, where he is in a bluffcatching spot, similar to the Di Dang hand:

50PLO - Can I bluffcatch this river?

I'd like to attack Ph33rox' spot together with you, using the Di Dang writeup as a template. Then we can analyze, share, tweak assumptions, re-analyze and back and forth until we are content. It will be fun and we'll learn lots of stuff. :-)

Enjoy!


24 Comments

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ZenFish 10 years, 11 months ago

I was thinking, when an interesting forum thread comes up, we'll get discussion going, then I'll update that doc with input files, fill in an initial baseline analysis, and wrap it up with the end-product after we have discussed our way to a strong analysis in the forum.

If we do good work, we'll have a collective reference doc of sorts for future analysis.


trondeez 10 years, 11 months ago

This program looks incredible. I highly suggest that every plo player check out the demo vids on the poker juice site. I am really looking forward to the analysis that this software will produce.

TianYuan 10 years, 11 months ago

Ah man........ I really didnt want PokerJuice to be this interesting. I dont have the energy to learn a new piece of software right now but it looks sooooo useful. PokerJuice should pay you a commission^^

Your posts are great, and I kind of sort of agree with Andreas above :D

analihilator 10 years, 11 months ago

intuitively, the hand look like a pretty clear call to me. what is he value betting that isnt raising on an earlier street ? missed heart draw every time. nice to have math to back it up !

acidboy 10 years, 9 months ago

Hi! Very good job, thanks for the hard work :)

I wanted to comment that, in the last hand (the Phil galfond vs analtmezer one) isnt the Top Range for Phil's preflop $3b15o on that board a bit too pesimistic? 

Flop is 4c2h6d, and you estimate that a top range for Phil there would be 53,22+,875+:2+

However, imo theres some more good holdings we could have on that board, like any boardpair/overpair + 2 backdoor FDs, top pair + nut BDFD, some two pairs...  or you think we shouldnt consider this top range?

So I wanted to check how adding that stuff would affect to our top range % (probably not much) etc, but then i realized that I dont know how to express this:

any boardpair/overpair + 2 backdoor FDs 

top pair + any nut BDFD

I have checked the vid @ pokerjuice website regarding the intelligent postflop syntax, but i still dont know how to express it.

Sorry for the noob question =P

ZenFish 10 years, 9 months ago

Thanks for the feedback! :-)

The range break-down was intended as a quick illustration of how often Phil has a big-pot hand compared to Villain. "Strong hand" is of course a loose definition, sensitive to the context. Here we are almost 400 bb deep in a 3-bet pot. When either player decides to escalate the pot from here, the very strong hands will be those that matter in the end.

To refine the range breakdown we could use more categories (not only "Top", "Mid", "Bottom"). It's my understanding that the developers plan to add just that, and perhaps they can comment on it here.

Now let's look at your expressions: 

Any board pair < top pair + 2 backdoor FDs

(2,4)!6+:(hhdd,hhcc,ddcc)

Note that demanding two BDFD's per definition removes hands like 4557 (board pair, but not with 9 kicker outs), since these can not be double-suited. More generally, to remove pocket pairs you can add !RR = not pocket pair. So you would start with (2,4)!RR!6+, and add whatever else was necessary behind.

If you want to express all the one pair hands, write:

2+!42+:(hhdd,hhcc,ddcc)

And for all one-pair-or-better, write: 

2+:(hhdd,hhcc,ddcc)

Top pair/overpair + any nut BDFD

Similar logic (assuming you don't want to capture two-pair-or-better):

6+!42+:(Acc,Ahh,Add)

Expressing your thoughts in PJ Syntax is very easy. See Odds Oracle's Generic Syntax Documentation for details on OO syntax (PJ SYntax is an extension of that).

EDIT: Made tired mistakes, fixed.


acidboy 10 years, 9 months ago

Thanks for the very fast answer!

Sounds great that they are planning to add that :) It would be def an interesting addon, would be great if we get that + the possibility of assigning a villains c/f % or fold % of each part (top mid and bottom) of his range if we combine it with HUD data and personal reads, to get a better idea of the EV of some of our bets, if that makes sense. 

Regarding the syntax, You wrote:

"Any boardpair/overpair + 2 backdoor FDs

2+:(cc,hh,dd)

That is, any hand, bottom pair or better, that also has two clubs, or hearts, or diamonds. "

This is not what i was looking for :P I think I explained it poorly (im spanish so sorry for the poor explanations). What i want is adding to the strong range the single non top board pairs which also have necesarily two backdoor flushdraws (only one BDFD is too weak imo), like:

4d5d7c8c

AcQcKd2d

etc

I guess it should be expressed with something like:

(2+!6+):(cchh),(2+!6+):(ccdd),(2+!6+):(hhdd),(2+!6+):(hhcc) ?

"Top pair + any nut BDFD

6:!77+:(cc,hh,dd)"

Here I meant all the top pairs and OVP with a nut backdoor fd, so i guess it should be something like

6+:(Acc,Ahh,Add) 

no?


ZenFish 10 years, 9 months ago

My bad, tired eyes and brain (been a long day). ;-)  Your explanation was perfectly clear. I have added the fixes to the previous post.

acidboy 10 years, 9 months ago

@ Case 3, ph33roX hand, you wrote: 

Q+ and 42-or-better straight draw, with double flush draw = (Q+,42+):(hh,cc)

Doesnt that expression mean Q+ or 42+ with hearts OR clubs draw? I mean you are defining hands which have 2 hearts or 2 clubs, instead having both, no? If you want to select the ones that have a double flush draw shouldnt it be like this: (Q+,42+):(hhcc) ?

I might be wrong but i wanna be sure :)

ZenFish 10 years, 9 months ago

Good catch! You are clearly getting the hang of the PJ Syntax now. :-) 

My expression catches "any flush draw", but not "double flush draw", and the correct syntax is of course "hhcc". I'll fix this in the doc later today. 


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