Preflop spew with 7654 vs 4bet?
Posted by plomo
Posted by
plomo
posted in
Low Stakes
Preflop spew with 7654 vs 4bet?
SB is a bit of a regfish that is loose and 3betting alot this session.
$0.10/$0.20 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.
MP: $44.33 (221.7 bb)
CO: $30.24 (151.2 bb)
BTN: $19.50 (97.5 bb)
SB: $34.22 (171.1 bb)
Hero (BB): $36.96 (184.8 bb)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 7c 6h 5d 4d
MP folds, CO raises to $0.70, BTN folds, SB raises to $2.30, Hero calls $2.10, CO raises to $9.20, SB folds, Hero calls $6.90
Flop: ($20.70) 6d Ah Kd (2 players)
Hero ?
vs AA** my hand is 40% and I am getting around 33% pot odds to call.
Can I call here or is it just spew as we are OOP and not double suited / capping our equity.
Loading 28 Comments...
We will need 33.5% equity on the flop to stack off and can expect villain to stack off every time (or close enough to that we'll make that assumption). We will have sufficient equity around 60% of the time, meaning we'll fold the other 40. When we stack off, we'll have, on average, around 57.5% equity. This means that, 40% of the time we'll lose our call - $6.90 - and the other 60% of the time, we'll win an average of $8.16. If you put this together (8.16*0.6 - 6.9*0.4), you see that we stand to win $2.14 on our call which is 8.5bbs roughly. This is such a large edge that even considerations such as the occasional correct fold by villain, flop error by us, or rake shouldn't discourage this call. Clearly it would be a pretty significant error not to continue with this hand. So yeah, don't fold.
i think you didnt fold it pre in 3 betted pot according to what i remember i saw month or 2 ago
Whenever i asked why i cant have makeup or high heels age 12-13 she used to tell me
Quod licet Jovi non licet bovi ( very nice latin proverb meaning what is aloud to gods isnt aloud to oxen )
Though i maybe older then both of you, in terms of PLO playing i do feel like a kid compared to you both, and as most of us here i guess, but as all kids we do have stupid questions and why this why this 5 times in a raw so very sorry if our questions are stupid
I guess its best for us to play by rules by time we reach certain level so ill try not to repeat over and over same questions
Upon last month suggestion and advising, which are stated in this same thread, i did lower play of lowconnects in various positions and in 4 betted pots...and may add did turn better for my bankroll for reasons 5carab and zenfish suggested as well
Im just using this to say sorry for repeatedly same questions that i guess have multiple layers of answers
Its just hard to accept something when you see other things at table work out, and we dont have usually patience to go layer upon layer of answer that i guess is diffrenet for different play levels
What you say about repeating the same questions is interesting from a learning perspective (and it's common for new players). When you find yourself confused about the same type of spot again and again, it typically means that there are factors at play that are (right now) invisible to you.
Beginners (rightly) focus a lot on the cards they are holding. While this is important, there's a lot more information to take in when deciding if and how to play preflop.
The rundowns is a type of hand that's easy to overplay. They work well HU in position in bloated pots, and therefore they are often 3-bet to isolate. Now a beginning player might think "ok, so if this hand can be 3-bet HU in position, I can also cold-call a 3-bet for implied odds in a multiway pot", but that's not necessarily the case.
This thread now contains lots of discussion about the nuances, so just take a little time to digest it.
But if you sometimes don't understand why, nag, whine, post and nag some more til someone takes the time explain. Trust me, it works :D
Our plan is then to get it in profitably on our best flops. If we shove over the 4B, we're sacrificing that EV by shipping in our stacks as a 40% underdog with zero fold equity.
Next, assuming villain has a somewhat tight 3-bet range (which isn't unreasonable), we will get 5-bet jammed on with a relatively high frequency. When this happens, we'll have the odds to call off, but be getting it in kinda bad. Creating a spot where we often (almost certainly >33%, especially given we don't block any of the high cards) where we get our stack in bad isn't necessary or good. This doesn't even account for the chance of the opening raiser having a hand he wants to go with which is always possible.
Even when just called, it's not like we're happy. We'll have to fire w/ very little equity a lot of the time or else check and give up on many boards. Whilst we may gain pots on flops like A93r which we would otherwise have lost, we will still end up losing a lot by either bet/folding a ton, giving up post a ton or getting it in bad. Remember, a lot of his 3-bet/call range will flop things which crush you when you flop well (78TJ, higher flush draws etc).
Finally, preflop fold equity really isn't something we give that much of a damn about in PLO, especially in cash games. The goal of our early decisions in hands is primarily to set up profitable situations later on. 4-betting this doesn't achieve that so is to be avoided here (if we were WAY deeper, perhaps it could be considered, I dunno, I don't often play super deep). It's not wrong to look for directly profitable preflop situations, but it's not where you will be making most of your money and going crazy preflop using a justification of "fold equity" is almost always gonna be spew. Remember, many players simply don't fold preflop once they've put money in 'cas they have so many cards.
sorry guys if im hounding over an issue but, if he pots it can we really ship with a the 5 high diamonds in our hand and if he only bets $12 or something that's not a shove how do we play turns? or did we just shove back over the top? if we just call and a non diamond 9 or higher and we have to fold id assume, so we'd lose that, but yeah how does this play out?
normally when i read points people have made i can understand why they are saying that, whether or not i agree that's one thing, but here i cant see why its not a fold, i can see why its a call if we KNOW he hasn't got diamonds but, we don't know this, so im super confused right now..
cheers guys and thanks
1) There's loose and then there's loose enough that you're pushing an edge (which basically isn't possible). Even crazy guys have SOMETHING here, and usually those somethings will be better than what you hold (they particularly like double-suited crap which kinda sucks for you 'cas they will often dominate your flush draws).
2) The 33% I said is the frequency with which I expect you to get 5-bet, not the equity you'll have when it happens. Don't forget CO can have good hands here also.
By 4-betting, all you're doing here is creating a situation where you'll be putting your stack in VERY often with the worst of two mediocre hands. I would need a very good reason to do that, and I've not found one yet.
I also see people refering to imediate equity in hands saying, I have 40% vs AAxx and I am putting in 33%. But you are not considering a lot of variables. Ones like, another player being in the hand and killing your equity. Or the other player 4 betting. Or the most important, how your hand plays postflop. When we run equities preflop its assuming we get to the river for the same amount. When you factor in other streets, that equity get diminished by hands like this and incrases with nut flush draws and bigger hands.
Be the first to add a comment