Preflop raise size
Posted by p1ndakaas
Posted by
p1ndakaas
posted in
Low Stakes
Preflop raise size
I always open raise potsize when folded to me or when there is one or more limpers. On the BTN I 3x it. I play PLO10.
I see alot of different preflop raise sizes in videos. Phil Galfdond 3x'es it unopenend or even against one limper. He also has 'weird' preflop raise sizes like 2.27 bb and 2.77 bb. What are the pro's and cons of this? Can't find much theory about it. What are your thoughts?
Loading 11 Comments...
I heard this in one of whitelime's videos on PLO made in like 2011ish when games were softer at his stakes (but I believe his advice still applies to PLO 10)
He said he likes to pot preflop because you allow players to make mistakes in bigger pots vs. you.
To my knowledge, raising smaller (like 2.27bb) makes sense when you get 3bet frequently. By raising smaller, you
1. risk less to steal the blinds (i.e. risk 2.27bb to win 1.5bb)
2. enable yourself to have a deeper stack when calling a 3bet (however I'm a little confused at when good players say they like this OOP because I feel like deeper stacks would favor the IP player... but it definitely makes sense to me when you're on the button)
1) When you're opening a tight range from EP, it makes sense to pot it. You don't mind if they fold, and you have good equity vs their calling ranges. So you can think of it mainly as a value thing + thinning the field.
2) When you're stealing with a loose range from the BTN, you have less incentive to raise big. You already have the BTN, the field is already thinned, and your position makes it easy to play when called. Raising small also allows you to call more 3-bets and see the flop with deeper stacks in that case.
It also makes sense to raise small if you consider the overall strength of your BTN range. Seeing cheap flops in position with weak hands is generally good for these hands.
I default to pot, pot, 3 bb, 2.25 bb from UTG-BTN and tweak that if circumstances dictate (for example, start limping BTN's against blinds that never fold, and raise a bit bigger with a stronger range). I don't think preflop sizings matter all that much, but it's always good to have a logic for it.
Nice post Zen. One question I have:
"1) When you're opening a tight range from EP, it makes sense to pot it.
You don't mind if they fold, and you have good equity vs their calling
ranges. So you can think of it mainly as a value thing + thinning the
field."
In NLHE, people generally stick with 2.5-3x PFR's even from EP. I'm curious what the reason for this is. Is this more a function of preflop equities being more static?
Interesting question to ponder. I haven't got any hard numbers to back up potting from EP as optimal in PLO, but I think it makes a lot of sense when you're forced to open tightly because people give lots of action behind you.
Your point about more static equities in NLHE also makes good sense. Then there's position, which is (imo) even more important in PLO than in NLHE. So we could argue that opening big from EP in NLHE discourages action from hands you don't mind action from. Your AQ likes action from AT, even when it has position, because a lot of the postflop action will revolve around dominated ace high/top pair scenarios.
Whereas in PLO you're not really looking for preflop action from any hand that has position on you (exaggerating a bit, but that mindset is not very wrong in PLO).
@overbet56: Yeah I think the biggest reason is the more static equity in holdem compared to plo. Also, because of that, if we get 3b in NL we can still 4b as value/bluff and put him in a tough situation even with a smaller sizing, as it is so hard to outflop the strong 4b range with spectulative hands. This is pretty much never the case in PLO, because 4b range is usually well defined (AA heavy esp. OOP) and won't have much FE because people want to outflop those aces, which is not as hard as in NL. But yeah, again it boils down to the more static equity of starting hands in NL.
My default sizing from UTG-BTN is pot/3bb, 3bb, 2.77bb and 2.27bb just like Phil does it.
On the button I open close to 100% unless the blinds are too loose. Taking it down preflop for +1.5bb gain is NEVER a bad thing even if you're IP, and I want to do this as often as I can with investing the least amount of chips. Also, when they 3bet I can call a lot more often because the SPR is gonna be large.
When I'm in CO, my opening frequency greatly depends on the BTN and blinds, more on the former. If BTN doesn't flat wide my open I just look at it as if I play 2 BTN's every 6 hands, and as a consequence I can usually get away with a smaller sizing than 3bb. I don't wanna make it too small (i.e. 2.27bb) because that can encourage the BTN to flat wider, which is not something I want to see when opening with a wide range myself.
In HJ and UTG, the chances of our preflop raise going through are pretty slim unless the table is extremely tight. That said I open a fairly tight range with a bigger sizing (3bb+) because I don't really want to encourage like 3+ callers, at which point it will be extremely difficult for me to take it down postflop no matter what. In other words, I want to thin the field as much as possible although that's not THAT likely.
With the 2.27, 2.77 and 2.5 bb opens from LP, can you still 4bet AAxx and shove any flop? Seems harder to get 1/3 of your stack in preflop.
No we can't, but when we're IP that's not a huge problem.
Zen and Midori have pretty much said most of what I'd wanna say on this topic. I'll just add that as we get shorter, I reduce my preflop sizings. 100bb deep I am going pot, pot, 3x, 2.5x. Short (say 40bbs deep effective) I am going 3x, 3x, 2.5x, 2x.
Thanks for all the responses. And when Isolating a limper, full pot or your regular raise size +1 bb?
Same principle, the stronger your iso range, the more sense it makes to pot it. But you might also want to isolate smaller with a wide range. For example, when the players behind you are very tight, the limper is docile, and you therefore decide to raise every hand you play behind his limps (foregoing the option to overlimp some hands, because you think iso'ing is better) and hope for good things postflop.
If your game plan is to iso and steal lots of pots on the flop, go big (more for you to steal). But if the limper is sticky postflop and forces you to show down hands, you're not really looking to build a big pot before you have something. In that case, iso'ing a wide range can get needlessly expensive if you go big.
Just think about what you're trying to accomplish, and how much stealing you'll be able to do postflop. The best iso size should then be pretty intuitive to you.
As an hypothetical extreme example, consider a player opening top 30% from CO, limping the remaining bottom 70% (never limp-reraising), and the blinds always fold to any raise. Clearly, your best BTN strategy with your weakest playable hands is to isolate his limps for a min-raise and outplay him postflop with position.
In this hypothetical scenario you would not need to balance sizing (you could pot your best hands for value) because your opponents' strategies don't change with sizing. But of course you have to think about sizing tells in real life (and using one size for you range is the simplest way avoid those).
Be the first to add a comment