PLO 25 rush overpair+fd facing turn cr
Posted by braampje
Posted by
braampje
posted in
Low Stakes
PLO 25 rush overpair+fd facing turn cr
CO: $18.30
BN: $25.29 (Hero)
SB: $19.15
BB: $33.18
UTG: $10.32
HJ: $26.05
BN: $25.29 (Hero)
SB: $19.15
BB: $33.18
UTG: $10.32
HJ: $26.05
Preflop
($0.35)
(6 Players)
Hero was dealt
5
K
K
2
UTG folds, HJ folds, CO calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.10, SB folds, BB calls $0.85, CO folds
UTG folds, HJ folds, CO calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.10, SB folds, BB calls $0.85, CO folds
Flop
($2.55)
2
8
4
(2 Players)
BB checks,
Hero bets $1.98,
BB calls $1.98
Turn
($6.51)
2
8
4
Q
(2 Players)
BB checks,
Hero bets $5.07,
BB raises to $21.72,
Hero raises to $22.21, and is all in,
BB calls $0.49
River
($56.00)
2
8
4
Q
5
(2 Players)
Final Pot
Hero has
5
K
K
2
BB has
Q
Q
6
7
BB
wins $48.39
no real reads on villain except he is playing 43/23 with 4.2 3bet over 62 hands.
Flop cbet seemed standard to me? at turn I was really unsure what his turn x/r range was. Should I be considering checking this turn or is this just an easy allin?
also is there a way to hide results or do I need to cut them from the HH?
Loading 14 Comments...
Well my first thought was what else can he have besides QQxx? Many players at this limit and below don't check-raise much besides the current nuts, middle set and the absolute best draws right? Even if that's not very accurate, what about on a board like this on the turn?
I feel the same way here. At SSPLO players just don't take aggressive lines with hands much weaker than ours. It sucks to let a player realize some equity in this spot but I actually think that I would check this turn in position and take the free card. I then reserve my right to turn my hand into a bluff on a heart river, can value bet all spades, 2, 4, K. I can also bluff catch a lot of busted draws.
Without reads at SSPLO I am just never fist pumping GII on the turn. If we cbet and get called how are playing when facing a bet on the river of A, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 for straights and hearts for the obvious flush draw. I would like to keep the pot small here and realize my equity,
Stating that ssplo players x/r this turn with top set only and suggesting a check back is no sound logic to me.
If we know we are super rarely x/r this should make this a very happy bet since we rarely have to fold our EQ and oftentimes get villain to fold his EQ.
I didnt make my point very well but I think that we have very little FE on the turn. I expect villain to raise a lot of hands better than ours and never fold worse, by that I mean, sets strong two pairs and combo draws and I never expect to go "Yes nailed it and got a 4 SPR in on the turn" Even when we bet we are left with about a PSB on the river and so many difficult cards.
So when we bet the turn we are actually building a pot where any A,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,T,J,Q makes either a straight, set or two pairs better against our over pair on the river. We have two nut outs (which we probably never get paid on cause it's near bricks in this instance). So we bet turn, get called, and donked into on the river. Now what?
I think that sometimes players get caught up in "I have lots of equity try to realize fold equity" when they are never realizing either. A bet on the turn gets near none of the heart draws to fold except the bare heart draws (but any connected two card combo can easily have a straight draw or pair plus draw). Also player could have nut hearts and two blockers to our spades which is bad in a of instances.
I ike this bet a lot more with a hand with 40-60% equity but no showdown value, with KK BDFD I think that we have enough value to play a small pot in position and see how things develop on the river. In this spot we basically value bet "semi bluff" a hand with near no nut outs and are building a pot where on the river we are going to be left with a bare over pair.
I see very little value in talking about the line adjustments because I really feel like this is in our check back range but tomorrow might do it if there is interest. I just never like playing the river in position with this type of hand and an inflated pot, never like b/gii on the turn, so it's a pretty easy check back IMO.
Nice post man!
While I think your reasoning ist very sound I'm a bit unsure about the ranges here.
Villain has a 42% VPIP and calls from the BB so he prolly has like 25-30% of hands. Unfortunatly we don't have a fold to cbet stat so I assume he folds a normal amount.
After he x/c our cbet he can have tons of A45, 876, small OP+hearts, bare overpair etc. I do think we have tons of FE here. If he doesn't fold we are pushing an (even if it's not a huge one) equity edge in position which can't be too bad, can it?
The only hands that crush us are QQ which is such a little party of his range (some QQ will x/f flop so it's an even smaller part of his range) and sometimes slowplayed flopped sets which are discount due to preflop even for a 42% VPIP. All other hands that are now ahead of us are turned 2pair which again can happen but is not a huge part + might donk out some of the time (rarely I guess but you never know).
Considering this I feel like taking the more aggressive line has got to be more +EV than x'ing back and playing and fold pretty much any river when villain donks into us on a non spade, 4, 2, Kc.
With fold to cbet stats or reads I could definitely move this hands from my check back range and into my cbet turn range but I think that checking would be my default play readless on this board texture.
I would actually call other rivers (might actually call all rivers except hearts and an A, 3, 5, 6 since they make up the majority of cards that connect with the flop call).
Today is my day off for review so I actually think that I might take some time and look at some sort of line analysis since this is a some what interesting yet common spot. I have very few "standard lines" myself and a lot of my range is fluid and I think that this hand is for sure one of those that I can play either way on the turn.
Nice posts! I agree with both your logics, but feel like it is way more likely that we can check through our overpair on the river when we bet this turn, realizing our equity if villain misses.
I was betting the turn mainly to get value from draws here, I thought we were ahead of his calling range, but not completely sure about this.
Hello everybody, I'm a novice player transitioning from NLHE and perhaps my questions are not very good,
but I'd like to make a question, what do you think about villain c/raise on the turn, I prefer donkbetting the turn with villain hand simply for value , do you agree?
it depends on how often we're barreling. if we betting most draws ott for us (BB) is more seasonable to c/r here OOP, as donking would lead to tons of trouble on the river. + we didn't demonstrate strength on the flop and could expect 2nd barrel pretty often. so it's villain dependable, but c/r seems more standard\better with given spr. though, donking is an option (in terms of balance and so..)
I like Villains c/r for a few reasons.
1) he has made a very disguised nut hand with a redraw (so if it checks through and a heart or five fall its not the end of the world)
2) A donk lead would fold out all the air that would stab a second time maybe weak hands we have crushed that would bluff catch or improve to worse hands by the river if checked through.
3) I think that a donk lead would turn a lot of our bet/gii hands on the turn into hands that we would call and play rivers with, so now he is losing value.
4)With SPR in this spot it's a great to have a lot of hands in my c/r range because it would be a way to maximize pressure, fold equity and overall EV.
Would need very specific reads for me to start and take hands from my c/r range and turn them into donk leads here. Donk a value range against opponents with a low aggression percentage on the turn. Or set up turn and river bluffs, semibluffs against players who have low WTSD% and fold too many hands on turns and rivers.
Thanks for the replies, I see your points and are very reasonable,
The problem I saw with the check raise , was if it is check through and we allows him to realize his equity, so in a spade or heart river OOP we don't know really what to do. But like Jimmyglass said we didn't demostate strenght and he is betting all the time, hence is better the check raise.
My thoughts with donking were:
1) If he's in a draw he pays for it so he can't realize equity for free, if he calls with a naked flush I think he's making a mistake cause the odds. But the point 3) of arukidines makes a lot of sense.
2) It's a relative dry board so with this hand we balance the times we bet fold in these situations.
3) Perhaps and it can be my leak, cause I tend to check raise draws in the turn and bet made hands, without see what the SPR is .
So I think your points were more accurate than mine.
'2) It's a relative dry board so with this hand we balance the times we bet fold in these situations.'
The 842Qds board is not dry in my book.
I think the problem with donking is that we create a scenario where we get called pretty often and face a difficult riverdecision with SPR ~ 1. Since we (in villains shoes) have topset AND hearts/gutter donking is probably better than with bare QQ since we have more preferable rivers.
My err in point 2). With two draw flushes is not a dry flop.
yeah I would say that with made hands on drawy boards you either wan't to get in almost all the money or nothing at all.
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