Playing 2 pair in PLO

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Playing 2 pair in PLO

I am not a fan of 2 pair in PLO. I dont put much money in with these hands unless I am drawing to more solid outs. Keep in mind, my game is full ring live PLO and not short handed 6 max online. I see a lot a players get money in with 2 pair where I never would. I dont know if my strategy is flawed or if I should be putting money in.

I ran into a hand this week where I was confused by why the villian played it. Nothing special here:

I have 89Tx with suited clubs and the flop is QcJcx and I have a gut SFD and a good wrap here. THere is $70 in the pot preflop and I check, villian bets $50 and 1 caller and I make it $250 with $300 behind. Villian calls and other guy folds. Turn is a blank and I shove and he calls my all in. I brick out and he wins with QJxx (no bd or connector cards or even a flush draw). I figure I am 70% in this hand but how does the villian value 2 pair so much? I would not want to bet call a psb with 2 pair and no draws but I see people doing this a lot.

What does he think is he ahead of to make this call?

Am I missing something?

13 Comments

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CleverNick 12 years, 2 months ago
With lack of information about who was PFR, position and stack sizes between other players etc., its a bit hard to say - but after being XR he needs approximately 40% vs. your range to continue. Only very few nits have mostly top sets here when XR and remember that he has blockers so you range are not 70% vs. his hand and probably not 60 either.

So unless he sees you as extremely nitty I think he should call IP and see a blank - as he did. Jamming on flop is also an option but ip better to see the turn and see what you do; could probably fold Ac and a few other cards if it comes and you jam.
cAp217 12 years, 2 months ago
This is interesting to hear. I am still trying to understand how people play and they dont view hand values the same was as I do. Its a hard thing to understand in PLO bc its so complex.
Girts Sprancis 12 years, 2 months ago
Your notion "I figure I am 70% in this hand" makes me think you have not checked out some of the equity match-ups that turn out rather surprising. While your hand looks very nice, it is actually not as strong as you might think. Even something as bad as KKxx with no FD has 35% equity against you (http://propokertools.com/simulations/show?b=QcJc2d&g=oh&h1=8c9cTs3d&h2=KK%2A%2A%21cc&s=generic).

As soon as you give villain a better FD, then he has at least 50% even with no pair no straight draw on the flop, for example http://propokertools.com/simulations/show?b=QcJc2d&g=oh&h1=8c9cTs3d&h2=Ac6c5h7d&s=generic. And it is actually not that hard for you to be completely dominated due to the non-nutty components of your draws (http://propokertools.com/simulations/show?b=QcJc2d&g=oh&h1=8c9cTs3d&h2=KcQdTc9h&s=generic).

So your play is mainly good for folding out those villain's hands, that have ~30-35% equity, but cannot stand a check raise, but you are never thrilled to actually get it in on the flop.

And as Nikolaj Borge already stated, it seems reasonable for villain to assume you XR the flop with a) a set or b) combo-draw. He has blockers to two of the more likely sets, so he leans heavily towards the combo draw.
cAp217 12 years, 2 months ago
I am talking about his actual hand. You assigned the range of kk cc which is a great hand on this board vs my range but he had qjxx no clubs and called it off. I am at least 70% vs his hand.
Girts Sprancis 12 years, 2 months ago
Well, if you want to know the equity for your actual hands, you should use the exact side-cards and suits of the hands. Based on your info, that he had no other draws whatsoever and that you do not mention your 4th card, here is a likely match-up http://propokertools.com/simulations/show?b=QcJc2d&g=oh&h1=8c9cTs3d&h2=QdJs7s6s&s=generic. As you can see, its a little less 65% equity for you. And it even goes down more if you maybe missed backdoor flush draw for him, and if he happens to have backdoor straight draw, then it's nearing 60/40 already, which is significantly different from "at least 70".

But mainly I would stress, that you should really look at a range of hands he can have and the corresponding actions, not just the actual hand.
OnceItRun 12 years, 2 months ago
It is kind of common for people to bet/call top two pair on boards like QJx/JTx/KQx and wait for a safe turn. Reasons are they know that they have ~50% equity against most hands that check/raise (given top2 blocks the 2 most likely sets), so they prefer to play turn (usually in position) and get it in with better equity against draws. Most of the time aggressively played draws jam blank turns anyways, so it can't be a big mistake.

Obviously, a much better judgement on his play can be done if you know stack sizes, positions, history, etc.
Tavan Art 12 years, 2 months ago
I'm not sure why you keep saying you are at least 70% vs his hand? You aren't... Just plug it in and you can see vs his exact hand you are closer to 60% than 70%... You also don't have a good wrap, you have an average wrap with an average number of outs mainly to the sucker end of all the straights that can hit.

You also didn't lead the flop on a very draw heavy board, so depending on the flow of your live game he may put you on massive draws instead of top or middle set. Half the deck makes top set difficult to play out of position on the turn, so check raising is odd live. I don't know who raised preflop or if it was a limped pot; that is important too. Also the fact that someone called his bet, THEN you raised might signal to him that some draw outs are being shared so his two pair hand might have even more equity vs a monster draw. Again, as others have stated, calling with top two pair in position in this spot is pretty standard. He then sees a brick turn and is willing to gamble getting fair odds while he thinks it's a pure flip or he's a slight favorite (due to dead draw outs in the other villain's hand).

Hope some of this helps, PLO can definitely be a complex game!
Mikey Stotz 12 years, 2 months ago
Christopher - what do you think that he thinks you have? Do you think that he should think that you have a set 100% of the time? As others have mentioned, him having QJ limits the possibility of you having a set. What do you think is an appropriate range of hands for him to think you have?
cAp217 12 years, 2 months ago
I posted the answer below but 90% of the time I have a wrap, NFD, set. Especially on a QJ suited board. Maybe I worry about flops with QJT or 789's in them bc of all the combo possibilities.
cAp217 12 years, 2 months ago
You guys are right 65/35. I ran the equities that night and I thought it was 71/29 but I was wrong. As for the hand and why I keep questioning it....

If I reverse the hand and I have top 2 on a draw heavy board I am not happy bet calling a shove. I guess I give too much credit thinking that 2 pair cant be good on these type of boards, especially w 2 of a suit. I always look at connected/suited boards and get defensive in live plo full ring. I understand that short hand online is a different game and ranges change but in live plo its usually a wrap vs set vs nfd hands. What can he possible think I have that I am willing to CR and shove with? I am always going to have a set, nfd, wrap here and he is ahead of none of those (unless its a naked nfd).

I am still trying to figure out 2 pair in live plo and its a work in progress. Example:

The other night at 1/2 PLO I am stuck about $1600 and a guy sits down that we have never seen at midnight. He tries to buy in for more than the max and is all in preflop 3 ways with QQ73 and scoops and now has $1k. He builds that to $2500 in an hour just playing nuts, raising anything preflop and making hands. I finally get him to call off vs my double-suited AA hand and I now have $1200 and he still covers.

The hand:

I have AKJ6 DS and I limp preflop (straddle pot) and it limps around (standard for the table bc he raisies every time) and he raises to $30. I Make it $100 and we are $1000 deep and it folds to him and he calls.

Flop comes A96 rainbow and he leads $125. I hate 2 pair and this is a spot where I have to go with it vs this guy. I raise to $375 and he tanks and shoves! I have to call right?
Mikey Stotz 12 years, 2 months ago
My read on your reads is that he'll stick it in preflop loosely. His hand in this situation doesn't meet that threshold so he calls preflop. This means he never has AA, KK or big broadway rundowns (AKQJ) since he reraises you preflop with those.

IMO, his most likely hand here is some sort of wrap or OESD. Occasionally he can have 96 + gutter or something along those lines. Occasionally he can have A9, set of 6's (less combos because you hold a 6), set of 9's. I think that folding on the flop would be a mistake. You have outs against A9, ahead of 96. Did you have any BDFD's?

When you raised on the flop, were you unsure about what you were going to do if he shoved?
cAp217 12 years, 2 months ago
I didnt think he was going to shove when I raised. When he tank shoves I had to think for a min but I have to call here. He had 96xx with the other 2 cards not in play. I normally wouldnt put in $1k at 1/2 with top and bottom but I am changing the way I play 2 pair.
CleverNick 12 years, 2 months ago
In general you should give us more information (suits etc.), the devil is in the details u know ;-)

But based on your description of the preflop maniac; I would definitely pot OR it preflop and hope for a profitable 4 bet scenario.

I would probably also vote for just calling his lead on flop. That would be a very profitable situation in position with a hand that I have under-repped and with BD eq (straights and T2P). Have you seen him lead before?

As played (which is not bad either) you need 31,2% and hence have to make a crying call. Its close vs. a guy that have many sets in his range (due to loose preflop stats and the fact that he has been showing strong hands down all night ). But you are 35-40% vs. A9-type hands which would be descent part of his range.

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