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PL25: bottom2 + weak FD, ugly 3way spot

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Posted by posted in Low Stakes

PL25: bottom2 + weak FD, ugly 3way spot

SB: $13.69
BB: $29.06
UTG: $12.34
HJ: $25
CO: $13.54
BN: $26.34 (Hero)
both guys unknown and fishy over a very small sample
Preflop ($0.35) (6 Players)
Hero was dealt T 7 5 8
UTG folds, HJ folds, CO raises to $0.85, Hero calls $0.85, SB folds, BB calls $0.60
Flop ($2.65) K 5 8 (3 Players)
BB checks, CO bets $2.54, Hero calls $2.54, BB calls $2.54
Turn ($10.27) K 5 8 3 (3 Players)
BB checks, CO bets $9.83

CO is almost allin and I wonder if it makes to shove and isolate with my marginal 2way hand or if the risk is too big that the BB has a better hand and won't really fold much better except maybe naked FDs. Calling looks awful too though because the BB will likely shove all his decent hands and put me into a really ugly spot.

And if I plan on folding here, I don't really see much point in calling the flop in the first place. When the CO pots it 3way I also expect him to continue on a brick turn >70% of the time.

13 Comments

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Aleksandra ZenFish 10 years, 6 months ago

You could have 3 betted pre flop and then your troubles would be way less then they re now on flop 3 way.

What is done is done, u re in multiway pot with awfully weak holding, making 1 mistake shouldn't lead you to make more, fold flop .


ohgodwhy 10 years, 6 months ago
I could have or should have? Would you rather fold than call this hand pre? What if the openraiser is sth like 30/6 over a big sample and we have to fear getting 4b or called by only a very strong range?


steveg12 10 years, 6 months ago

Agree with everything else you have said in this thread, but isn't our hand a little too strong on this flop to not either lead or check call a bet?  I realize there are very few good turns but just seems sort of weak to be check folding no?

midori 10 years, 6 months ago

@steveg12: Good to see you here! :)

Technically, we can't x/c or lead because we are IP against 2 other players.  If we were OOP, I think check/calling or lead/folding is an okay play, although I don't think we can make tons of money either way, anyway.  Naked bottom 2 pairs are very weak hands in PLO, and we don't have any clean outs. 

Here, I don't think calling one street is all that bad when we are IP, so my default play would be to call.  We do have 2 backdoor FD's as well, so folding is probably too nitty.  There are certain cases, however, where I'd just pitch bottom 2 right away on the flop.  Mostly when I am OOP, but I can think of some cases where I'm IP as well. 

Aleksandra ZenFish 10 years, 6 months ago

You 3 bet this hand to iso so your 2 flush draws that aren't nutty and have no value multiway gain value they lack in HU pot. Your hand plays well against aces and well in HU so you don't mind getting 4 bet when you re IP

If you 3 betted, your hand would have big value HU and in isolation, you call and go with sufficient equity which you wil have on many flops, multiway its just junk you need to fold on most flops.




ohgodwhy 10 years, 6 months ago
Yeah, I understand the concept of why 3betting a hand like this has merits. I'm rather having trouble weighting the pros and cons with different hands in different spots.
And in that RIO has really confused me because I've seen the coaches overcalling hands like 8776ss or QJ97ss way more often whereas they've always been auto 3bets for me. Maybe that's still different from the hand posted and I'm having trouble differentiating between good 3bets and bad 3bets but that's just how I end up in spots like these.


Aleksandra ZenFish 10 years, 6 months ago

One thing you need to think about when thinking about your hands is what they can actually hit and in what circumstances

Hand like 8776 ss has only one suit and has a pair in it, so hands with a pair in it doesn't work as great as 3 bets, and one suit diminishes value of isolation as such.

When it comes to hands like QJ97 , single suit as well diminishes isolation upsides, and Qj9 high cards in multiway pots have nutty str8 component, and have high cards value, whereas low 2 pairs in multiway pot from your hand T875 have no 2 pair value QJxx hand has on some boards, so in order your  hitting of 2 pair with that hand gain any value, you do need to 3 bet it and take hand HU, becauslow 2p multiway gave no value or very lil value

ohgodwhy 10 years, 6 months ago
Got it!
Lets say I've someone open in MP and a fishy player calling in the CO, I'm in the BTN with the above hand and might even have another fishy player in the blinds. I've also learned that 3betting hands like above in this spot doesn't make much sense because we will only bloat the pot and still play a 3+way pot with our terrible multiway components.
Is this a spot to just fold this preflop although we get insand odds and implied odds (but also reverse implied odds!)?


ZenFish 10 years, 6 months ago

For every hand you play preflop, think about the postflop scenario you are setting yourself up for. Does your hand play well there? If it does, you play, if not, you fold, or (if possible) try to create another scenario where it does play well.

For raggedy non-nutty hands like T875, you prefer to play HU and in position. 3-betting sets you up for that. And the same goes for even more raggedy hands, as long as you have some connectivity and suits. But those hands do not play well in multiway, singleraised pots, since in those scenarios making the nuts is so important. So you stay out of those, especially out of position.

Then there are in-between spots where you have a hand that is weak'ish multiway, but you can not create a HU spot, and bloating the pot does not do you much good. So your options are to flat and take your chances multiway or to fold. Here you just have to use your best judgment. :-)

midori 10 years, 6 months ago
Hand like 8776 ss has only one suit and has a pair in it, so hands with a pair in it doesn't work as great as 3 bets, and one suit diminishes value of isolation as such.

Well, this is not always true.  Why are pair hands like 8776ss a bad candidate for 3bet?  Sure, you could choose a better hand like 8765ds or 8776ds, but 8776ss hands play well in 3b pots, too.

On the other hand, these hands don't play well in 4-bet pots, and we mostly have to fold when getting 4-bet.  This is the crucial difference between hands like 8776ss and T874ds, because the latter can easily call the 4-bet.  But at micro stakes, people's 4betting range is mostly AAxx anyway and that shouldn't happen very often.  

It's hard to compare the EV of flatting and 3betting with 8776ss on the BTN, but in general, there's nothing wrong with 3betting and taking it HU with non-nutty hands.

Also, "value of isolation" doesn't have much to do with having a singled-suited or a double-suited hand.  If our isolation worked, we're off to the flop HU and will take down the pot reasonably often, because people tend to play straightforwardly in 3b pots, especially OOP.  If our isolation didn't, now our hand value kind of matters and it helps to have a $ds hand, but that has little to do with value of isolation because well, our isolation didn't work.  

Aleksandra ZenFish 10 years, 6 months ago

Midori, he was asking why some pro;s do not 3 bet them

Alike hands can be used as iso of course, but I'm just trying to make him understand the line of thinking about hand, why it can go and why may can be flatted

I ellaborated on reasons why not to and flat, of course argument for otherwise is as solid.

What he needs to comprehend first is possibilities :) then decide what to do with them

midori 10 years, 6 months ago

Well thing is, routinely flatting these hands and going to the flop 3- or 4-way can be a mistake that is hard to spot.  And even if certain hands were not ideal to 3bet, we have to compare the EV of folding and flatting, instead of just flatting.  

Your argument was that having a pair and only a single suit decreases the value of iso raising, and mine was that it doesn't matter a ton unless villain often makes a move in 3-bet pots or 4-bets a lot.   I believe 3betting is a superior choice to folding or flatting.  If you don't think 3betting is profitable, that's fine; but why would flatting be profitable, then?

Aleksandra ZenFish 10 years, 6 months ago

Im not having argument Midori, Ohgodwhy said :'And in that RIO has really confused me because I've seen the coaches overcalling hands like 8776ss or QJ97ss way more often whereas they've always been auto 3bets for me'

I was just trying to make him understand the various upsides of possibilities, whereas shall he 3 bettor flat or fold even, he can decide later when he gets understanding of possibilities. Me personally do not stand for either option as superior in cases that can go bothways

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