Great idea, and i enjoy your RIO content ive seen thus far!

I would actually be very much on board if this was offered perhaps 2 or 3 months down the road, as those hours open up for me, but cest la vie.

Will certainly be on the lookout for such opportunities then, but just felt the need to chime in as a very interested party that hopes your seats fill quick on this run!

Assuming things go well I'll offer another round starting somewhere in Nov-Jan range

Have you play any online poker for the past 12 months (preferably on Stars and not some joke like Ignition or WSOP NJ)? If so can you show any screenshots of your result? Your intermediate course costs twice as much as Upswing's PLO University. Jnandez87 is a proven winner at 500z to 2K PLO on Stars.

My focus over the past year has been coaching, writing, research, and making videos. Playing (on American sites, not Stars) is a focus for the rest of this year, so I'll post a graph then. The best sources for my credibility are my videos here and the free written material on my website.

I've known Nandez a long time. He's a very good poker player, studies hard, and articulates things well. I don't know the details of PLO University but he and I talked some about it when he was developing it. If he's offering it in this price range I would bet it is a good value.

There was interest here in a beginner course last fall but it didn't come together. These courses are what I came up with recently, and this is what I can charge to make them worth it to me relative to my other work. If they fill, great, if not I'll do other things.

I don't think anyone is doubting your efforts in coaching your students. I'm sure you put a lot of time and effort into each individual that pays for the program. However what I am worried about is the fact that you haven't played poker at a high level in a very long time. Sometimes a coach can be very good with words and is able to explain things very clearly and efficiently. The problem is though when the information that is being given is simply incorrect or out of touch with the way the games are being played in 2017 in an environment with good players (so that means stars, not soft american sites).

Why do you think you can teach us how to beat PLO in 2017 and how does this program fare versus the obvious competitors?

Couple things. If I didn't hate the marketing and self-promotion side of coaching/writing/videos, I'd probably write a big thing about why to buy this. I'd have ads in the right places and all that. I just don't really feel like it, never have. There's plenty of info out there on me to help people make a decision. If it runs it runs, if not, ok.

I am going to play 250k-300k hands the next six months and as an RIO coach and etc I do think it's right to post that end of year. So I will. Also, I'm not exactly sitting around with only power points, excel, and poker juice all day. I play some, online and live, and lame brag I just got back from a WSOP week trip where I cashed in four events in four days, all different games.

That said, on reflection I'd bet Nandez' course is better than what I'm offering here. The past six months I've worked on like 10 different projects across plo and mixed games. My two largest students are mixed game students. Meanwhile Nandez worked almost exclusively on his course besides playing, to my understanding.

I almost never disclose who has bought my book, but since he had it in his Skype avatar for a long time and I can't get to the compliment without it... I am fairly confident that Nandez is one of the top three buyers all-time in terms of maximizing his use of the book. He studies as hard as anyone.

Some people may fit better with one coach versus another, but in general I'd bet his program is really good.

Still, as said, contact me if you're interested, and if it goes it goes, if it dies it dies. I personally just like the idea of a group course, so if lowering the price a bit gets it going, I probably would. But I'm not going to do a hard sell. Soft sells are annoying enough.

wtf guys, you look up to jnandez, jnandez looks up to tom chambers(or at least he used to), so until you're at jnandez's level playing 500z get out of here with this redic comments questioning how good he is. not to mention that half of those guys saying "oh but you don't know how games are in 2017" wouldn't beat the game even few years back. poker therory is the same now or back then, just ranges are different, once you learn to analyse the game in a way that gives you the correct result you can do it in 2007 or 2017 which Tom has proven to do. I'm only writing this so that HE doesn't get discouraged making this great efforts cuz of you weirdos. and lastly I have a friend who bought 10h coaching from jnandez some time ago and wasn't that satisfied despite him playing well/talking well, so it really depends on a person. either say it'll try it out or don't, do you think he'll lower the price because you cry how shitty games are in 2017. +if someone doesn't play that much doesn't mean he can't teach you, look at freddie roach the best boxing trainer old as fuck doesn't box for a long time still can make champions .. many times the biggest winners in games actually can't teach you due to their lack of talking skills/understanding how beginners mind works/understanding even how their mind works etc.(my personal experience from nlhu).. all I wanted to say

I'm not at Jnandez's level who plays much higher now, but I play 500z.

Boxing (or any physical competition) really isn't a great analogy to poker. You are correct that the biggest winners in the game often can't teach, but how is this relevant? Nobody claims to be a big winner. In my opinion, those that teach must at least beat the games. That's why there's a thread where RIO coaches are posting their graphs.

I'm not asking him to lower the price. I'm simply asking how does he justify 2x the price of PLO University, and he pretty much said PLO University is a better product, and he charges this much due to his own internal opportunity cost.

I would like to weigh in here as well as I was looking to get coaching for myself.

I might not understand something correct me if i am wrong but PLO University and what is offered here by Tom Chambers are two complete different approaches and teaching methods.

-PLO University is theory based video course with a Facebook group to get answers from Fernando.

-Tom is offering a group coaching session based on your level of abilities. With his input directly which I think is a huge unique value added attribute that is offered by only Tom and no one else for PLO anywhere else.

-There is already a huge video series on RIO elite.
"If you are a RIO Elite Member and look for my videos, the main thing you will see for the next few months is the unrolling of a 36-part PLO Theory series. The series aligns with Advanced PLO Theory" - source plotheory.com

This course will not be the same. I doubt Tom will go into the same material twice in the same format this will be a waist of his effort and time. Correct me if i am wrong here Tom.

His material on PLO is still considered to be the best on the market just ask those people who play higher stakes than you.

As to figuring out which course is bettter for beginners you can only comment on both courses once you went through both. No matter what stakes who plays. Otherwise these are only assumptions.

Although, I agree that someone who has not been known in the market should present a graph of his winings this does not apply to Elite RIO coach that has two best PLO books on the market to coach. Phil Galfond picks the best of the best to coach on Elite RIO that is why it is considered to be the best video streaming site around.

I have no doubt in abilities and detailness of the course that is offered here. I am sure the course will be filled very fast who know if it will ever be offered again.

tbh 500zreg ur comment wasn't the one that pissed me off, if u play 500z, sure it's natural to ask those kinds of things I would as well but there were others commenting in the same fashion that I know aren't anywhere near that level and were just trying to seem smart or some sht. that's all

These are not theory courses. I said that.

Two reasons:

1 - For almost a year I've been trying to write a sequence of 3 beginner books. I struggled with hitting the right tone for a while. It felt like I was rehashing too much of APT, and in a way that wasn't appropriate for beginners. Not that it would be too hard to understand, more that it was too heavy and the mapping from theory and serious math to decision making wouldn't be as clear and comfortably processed as it was for the higher stakes players who bought APT. So for those books, even the one called "Beginner PLO Theory" I've shifted everything toward the empirical/practical. And I wanted to do a course that does that.

2 - I have been thinking and working for a while now on heuristics, guidelines that are based in the hard theory/math but are distilled into bite-sized concepts so they are easy to use in-game. Guidelines for calling 4bets and 4bet pot stack-off criteria are a simple example. These aren't supposed to be universally true, just true often enough that learning them and when they apply is worthwhile. I'm working toward a book on this as well. No, I don't know when any of the books will be done.

These two items are core principles for these courses. When appropriate, I'll pull in relevant theory or numbers, like roughly how often hand X that we are thinking about calling a 3bet with flops well enough to shove over a c-bet. But it will be ad hoc usage of these things, not comprehensive presentation. We will use Poker Juice some, that's about as math heavy as it gets and I don't really think PJ is math-intensive at all.

An example of a lesson --> In the beginner curriculum there is a week on preflop 3bet/4bet play. A large topic. I won't be bringing in all the hand categories, or tables with three-betting hands by position or versus different range widths. Students will submit hands a few days before, in the case of this week I think it is 18 total. I'll aggregate them logically. Maybe two people submit hands about deciding whether to call a 3bet with a low Axx rundown like A865ss, and maybe a couple submit a hand where they three-bet that kind of hand. We'll group those and talk about them individually and together. We'll ask where thresholds are - if we call A865, what about A753? Etc. Maybe another 3 hands are dealing with whether to 4bet AKKx or AKQJds type hands, and another is about whether a light 4 bettor is light enough to stack off one of those hands. We'll group those four together for a segment of the session, talk about them individually and as a group. And so on. When we really hit a tough one, we pull in Poker Juice, Excel, an abacus, whatever, and get precise.

Regarding public me. I hate this topic. A long time ago I did some PLO research and turned it into a coaching package. The students liked it, I turned it into a book. Some people said and say it's amazing, some people said and say it's overpriced and overrated. Sorry, but I don't care. Both views are valid. APT is f*ing expensive. Frankly as far as I'm concerned the only people who made a dumb decision are those who bought it and barely read it (and there are several, to my knowledge) .

Anyway, all I did was do some stuff that became a book and sell enough of them that it was worth the work. The same can be said for every public thing I've done. Videos, other writing, coaching. If I wasn't good at research, analysis, and writing or it didn't pay well, I wouldn't exist as a public poker person. It's annoying, and it's not like I'm Galfond or Sauce, thank god. I seriously wish I could have published APT and done everything else as "Anonymous."

Like the guy said, vote with your wallet. I'm not trying to own the poker world and I don't care how many no votes there are. I am responding primarily to clarify what this course is and is not and where it fits with the rest of what I do.

Over time I've gotten enough yes votes on stuff I've sold and made enough playing to take care of my family. I'll take it. If some people think the course sucks, then ok. You guys don't even have to get your wallet out to vote with it.

Right now I'm simply offering to teach some low stakes guys some stuff as described above. Everyone here is an adult and has their own wallet. I hope it happens. It'll be fun and I'm excited about it.

I will agree with the other guy that RIO did hire, and rehire, me for a reason. And though I won't get into who has bought my material or who I coach/have coached, let's just say they aren't playing .5/1.

I suppose I could look this up, but I have to leave comp and we have some experts here. How many hours is Nandez' thing? That's relevant if you are comparing prices.

JNandez is crushing PLO at all levels. No doubt.

If you were part of his initial free webinars on transitioning to PLO you would know that JNandez himself said that his work was influenced by Tom Chambers .

That in itself should be self explanatory.

I do not have PLO University but quoting here. So you should ask that question Fernando as you have direct access to him. ; - )

As for APT I have seen the book and it is mind boggling on how much work went into it. It will take you a year to go through the book.

I can't get you exact spot where Fernando mentions APT in Upswing workshop of April 2017 - it is down.

Here is where Fernando suggests that you should pick up APT in his own words before he had PLO University.

https://youtu.be/8TZBvaNNH6E
0:42 .

I can confirm PLO University build on some elements of APT but it is not a prerequisite. Just like learning German is not a prerequisite to learning English.

Just wanted to say that as someone who has had coaching with tom and who owns his book, Tom is truly one of the brightest minds in poker. Much of the advanced theoretical concepts that I currently use come from Tom's work. I can't speak to how this package will compare to other programs out there, but I'm sure that Tom can deliver incredible value to any student, well in excess of the price tag.

Sorry this one has been bugging me.

Quickly on APT and its influence on people playing now. I wrote it aiming at a universal framework that would apply in any game conditions. And some parts of it really are timeless - the core structural fundamentals, some of the analytic processes. But some parts are dated, and some are just flawed. I have a picture of my head of what APT2 would look like and there is a lot I'd do differently.

Doesn't mean the original is bad, but it means anyone who is good today and credits it to some degree must have done a lot of work to a) sift through the strongest to weakest elements of it, b) understood what would become dated, c) understood what would necessarily be absent or weak in a theory book, d) done a bunch of work to extend parts of APT and a bunch of work unrelated to APT.

I know a few people from early on who said the book had a massive influence on them immediately, who I then watched push off from it in different directions as they moved up to high stakes. Different path for everyone, using APT (and/or coaching) but then doing a lot of work on their own.

All to say, sure Nandez has given me credit for some of his success, but it's borderline insulting to call work he's producing now derivative or a distilled version of the book. He wouldn't be a winner if that were the case. Like maybe he said that or something like it, but I doubt he meant it in the way its implied above.

Hey,

I am kinda interested in intermediate course. But I am more concerned about time of the session, 1.5 hours with 6 students seems to me like a very little time, because sometimes even one hand analysis could take more than 2 hours from my experience.

Also I have read your book Live full ring PLO, watched like half of your videos here on RIO and currently I am playing 1/2-5/10 at stars with decent winrates, how beneficial would that be for me? Because I dont feel like I fall into category of these players that already know things you can "teach". And I have no doubt in your coaching skills even tho "you havent played high stakes at stars these days".

Thanks for response.

Sounds perfect! I have sent you a pm.

Maybe my perception of that statement is different from how it was implied by Fernando.

The fact that APT had a huge influence on his work is a fact.

If you look at William Sharpe and his ratio that does not mean Harry Markowitz' portfolio theory cease to exist. They both exist in the same world and layer to build a modern investment theory.

sure but Markowitz is a genius in his own right. I know APT is influential, that's not my point. It's that anyone who built off it will did a ton on their own and likely topped me in specific things in APT. One simple example. The starting hand category groupings in APT are flawed. There are several cases where hands in the same category are of very different strengths.

I've done some work on improving this and would publish something different if I ever did, in fact I have an entirely new process in mind for evaluating starting hands. I also know Fernando separately did a ton of work on it. The spreadsheet he was working in and the detail he went into is insane. I don't think he's publishing it in full, but I imagine that work is a part of his University being better than it would be if he just sniped my old categories.

P.S. I messaged Fernando just to inform him this thread turned into a lot of discussion of him, in case he wants to speak for himself. No idea if he'll choose to do so.

I think this discussion took a wrong turn.

I never questioned Fernando's abilities. If it seemed like I did. My true apologies to Fernando.

I saw the excel sheet in a free workshop it looked amazing. At that time, I was not interested in PLO. Fernando mentioned your work that was enough for me to think of RIO content if i ever needed to jump into PLO.

Fernando took whatever was available at the time and molded it into something completely new. There are very few people who can do the same. No matter how much coaching or books or time they will spend. It is done by sheer obsession and pure dedication. Aha moments don't come easily to us. Otherwise, every second one of us would be Steve Jobs.

Fernando, is beating high stakes in Vegas and online using his methods. He does not need proof. He is a genius in his own right in PLO space, no doubt. He has hacked the game. )))

Unfortunately, many will never reach the level Fernando is at no matter how long they will keep at it. As in any professional sport there are people who just don't have it. By taking coaching from you and others my time span shortens in finding out do I have it or I don't.

Besides, the initial offer from you , as i stated above, is different than PLO university. There is live interaction with students, plus your live input which I think is invaluable.

Alas, I think the intial subject was in questioning your abilities. After more than a decade of research, books, coaching and video content here on RIO. I was wondering why would people question your expertise?

After all, it is obvious to me that Phil Galfond puts a lot of thought into picking the right roster for Elite members. That is why RIO Elite is way ahead of any other training website. Questioning your abilities to me at least, was questioning all the coaches on Elite.

Since, I am an elite member that did not sit right with me. Moreover, this is a forum and we can voice our opinions even if they are just our own opinions. I thought I would share mine.

500zreg you are questioning credibility of Tom to coach. This site is dedicated mostly for online play. If you went through the content there is barely any live content on here.

You might as well question ability to make good video content on RIO Elite. For me it would be the same. What would be the point of creating RIO Elite content if it has no value in todays environment? Yet, many people use the content and the books as stated above in todays environment.

There are no guarantees in life, you can be certain you are investing in your education. How you execute on that education is completely up to you and your abilities to comprehend information. You don't fault your finance professor that you did not become a top trader on J.P.Morgan trading desk nor do you ask your professor if he is a top trader on the Wall Street before going to university and majoring in Finance. So why would you do it here?

As for pricing each coach sets his/her price according to the opportunity cost that seems viable to him/her. If you asked around you would know that Elite coach rate is between 400 - 700/h.

I hope this helps.

Yes I'm questioning Tom's ability to coach in today's online games. Writing a book seven years ago does not automatically qualified you to coach today. Tom even acknowledged flaws in his books, and everyone that became successful had done a lot of work on top of it.

There are no guarantees in life, I'm trying to ask more questions before anyone makes a decisions. Like researching the schools or reading professor evaluation. This is what I'm doing here.

I understand elite coach rate is high, I want to see evidence if Tom is an elite coach, or just making videos for elite sub.

If you have gotten coaching from Tom and feel the need to defend him here, I respect your opinion and end this.

If you have not and only defend him because you have watched his videos, I think you should reevaluate.

Just wanted to say that 500zreg is my favorite poster in this thread. Self-evaluation is in my opinion the hardest thing for a poker player. So easy to let variance be the explanation, so easy to think you've got something in your game that no one else has figured out, so easy to be blind to leaks. It takes really hard work to get past this, and people telling you you're wrong or not that good is a driver in that process. I don't agree with everything he's said here but he's been quite useful.

Token of good will, no sweat if you pass, I'll offer you a free hour of coaching. Any theory topic, a session review, collected hands with a theme or just assorted, stats/db analysis, whatever you want. For all I know I'll learn more than you. Would have to be sometime end of July or early August, I have four or five things hitting at once right now.

Also I've seen big #s thrown around for Elite coaching rates. Personally I charge $300 for 1-1 sessions where I don't have to prep (hand reviews, for example), and $400-%600 where I am present research, PowerPoint, structured outline, etc. There are package discounts that knock these number down. I also have students who started soon after I came back in 2016 who are getting more like $150-$200/hr.

Those numbers are for plo. Mixed games are a bit higher.

I'm sorry to say but I am totally on board with 500zreg, as unfortunate as it might sound for other posters in this thread. If I were to purchase something that costs $2000, I would really want to know that it would improve my game, not just something I would read and never use, like a random fiction book. 500zreg brings a lot of topics, you mention that you are willing to play hundred thousands of hands and post them in months from now, how would that even be adequate, the whole point of posting hands is so people have proof that your knowledge has an impact, and it could only help them BEFORE the release of the content. Theory does not turn people into superstars, especially if it has no practical use, that is exactly what the other poster is trying to say and It is extremely important to take that into consideration.

If anybody could show up and suddenly post courses for $2k, without proof, a lot of people would be scammed. I realize that Tom Chambers is a coach on RunItOnce and nobody is questioning Phil's ability to find people that are bringing value however, we are not looking at RIO's content at this point but external $2k purchase that a coach if offering on its own time, it would be absurd if nobody had questions or concerns.

Moreover, JNandez is a winning Pro crushing the stakes he's playing, and you being more of a "theory coach" at least in my eyes, probably also in many others', I don't understand how your pack could offer more value than his, opportunity cost for you might play a role but it doesn't in everyone else's view. Which is beyond me how I could ever purchase it over someone that has not only proof of crushing those stakes, but also his own pack that costs less than yours! I just don't see the value, and you do give the "indifference" vibe to me, which makes me less eager, probably handful other people as well.
Lastly, proof of being a winning player, and potentially some sort of preview of the content or whatever could totally change everyone's view on this. Although I do wish you best, 500zreg brings very obvious points that I'm sure everyone else is thinking, I'm surprised nobody else wrote anything to back him up so I might as well be the first.

I won't reply in detail to each negative comment. But I am reading every word and paying attention. I'll repeat to Everize that his comments are appreciated and serve as motivation and an opportunity to think about where to put my 70 hours a week of energy. I am a hyper-competitive workaholic. I like extra gasoline on the fire.

For various personal reasons, when I came back to poker a year ago, I chose not to play very much and focus on the other things. I'm playing now. But I don't have the pretty graph to show you yet. That is a fact I can't change. And I may never have a graph as pretty as Mr. Habeggar's.

I will add that I've been in the poker world since 2005 and known many credible people. I would wager that all of them would say I have integrity. When I offer these courses at these prices, with the plans I have in mind for them, I honestly believe they will be worth the money, at least for some people. You can honestly believe something and be wrong, but I'm not some random with no record who just threw a course up at the highest price he thought a few suckers would pay.

Finally, Everize - same offer if you want it. One free lesson of any type on any topic/theme. I won't do this for everyone who comes here and challenges the value of the course. I do have, you know, a lot of paid work to do. But maybe the first 5 or 6.

I also would like to get this back onto the actual courses, and I think tomorrow I'll have time to add some more detail, for those who are interested.

"and you do give the "indifference" vibe to me, which makes me less eager, probably handful other people as well."

I am far from indifferent about the work. When I decide to do a project, I put everything I have into it.

I am indifferent to criticism and praise. Or rather, I pass through the emotional part of having my ego stroked or bruised, and I look for what in the opinion, good or bad, I can use to improve my work and my skills.

Wasn't always like that. When the APT threads were hot back then, I swung all over the place based on what people said. I tilted for an entire year. I think the main difference is having kids. When you're single if you waste time being butt hurt and get sloppy or tilt off a bunch, It only hurts you. When you have all the life plans that come with kids, the house in that neighborhood with that high school, saving for college, and so on, that shit just isn't acceptable, and it changes how you handle things. I'm not saying I never get lazy or tilt, but I take the job far more seriously that I did 6-7 years ago.

So, no, I am not indifferent in the way you meant. Not at all.

Hello again.

I have made substantial enhancements to the courses, increasing the number of session hours to 36, adding bonus content from myself every week as well as graded homework, and creating a participation and quality of activity contest that will result in one person in each group receiving a free copy of all of my books including APT, plus two hours of 1-1 coaching. Other students will receive prizes as well.

I have a bit of work to do beforehand, so the courses will start September 8. The $1k/$2k prices will be good until August 4, after which it will become $1250/$2500. We have a handful of signups so far, a bit less than half in each.

The entire detailed syllabi are available here - https://www.plotheory.com/special-coaching-offer.

If interested, contact me here or at plotheory@gmail.com. Thanks.

With respect to the overall website, please excuse my dust - it is under reconstruction. Not inaccurate, just stale and not as I want it.

I didn't see this question earlier and I think it's a good one. My simple answer is that beginner players don't know what they don't know (Jared Tendler would call it unconscious incompetence) and need to be told what is most important in a fairly linear way.

Intermediate players know the most important fundamentals but sometimes make mistakes with them and know what they don't know (conscious competence) from the second level of important things. They have some sense of which of the things they know and don't know are most important in general and to them and are working through how to create a cohesive game from all of it.

Collectively a group of such players bring different informed views on the fundamentals the beginner players need to be given uniformly. They also bring different questions about the next level and different strengths and weaknesses - the right mix can create a cool teamwork/network effect.

This is what has been in my mind in working on the courses. I'd argue this model (extended to higher levels as well) is much broader than poker and applies to learning anything. I actually think high school/college is a great beginner/intermediate analogy.

W.r.t PLO I'd say you're probably looking at a split point around 100 --> 200 online and 2/5 or 5/5 -> 5/10 live. Not entirely clean, but clean enough.

I'm truly bumping this just bc I saw the learning q and it is interesting. Someone liked a post and it showed up in my messages thing. Tempted to write a much longer post on it.

But to anyone curious, the courses have a few people signed up and some spots open; I've been working on prepared material; we plan to start early-middle of October; I'm going to run them with whatever # of students there are. There'll be free preview content on my website and emailed to people on my mailing list. I'll post when that's up. Free is free, right.

Hello Tom,

I'm playing exclusively 5 card plo on stars and winamax up to plo 1k and I saw you just made 2 videos about this amazing game. Is it possible to see them without being elite? (like paying for each video).Do you play it online? If yes, what is your pseudo on Pokerstars or Winamax? Is there live play in your video?

Have a good day,

Kevin

Hi Kevin - I live in the U.S. so I can't play on Stars and there's no live play in those videos. One is an analysis of starting hand combinatorics and there are three (one released but three completed) on hand versus range equities on various flops. I plan at least one more on equities and after that I'm not sure.

Once I make them RIO owns the videos so I can't sell that individually and I'm pretty sure RIO doesn't either. It would undermine the business to let people cherry pick from Elite that way. I don't have any non-video 5 card content for sale, but might in the future.

I play 5 card high and hi-lo in local live games and played hi-lo in Vegas this series, have done some research beyond what'll be in videos, and am coaching one student on 5 card high exclusively. I like the game, but I like 20 games; how much I do with it going forward depends on a bunch of factors.

Hi, I understand the business model but I thought that maybe for exotic games RIO would offer to just buy 1 video :) Was hoping to see some game play from stars or winamax :) thank you anyway!

-`I am going to play 250k-300k hands the next six months and as an RIO coach and etc I do think it's right to post that end of year--`.
Should we expect graph soon?

Should we except graph soon?

Forget it.
Seems to be a trending thing these days just to forge some graphs or not to show their results at all.