Is Tom Chamber's PLO book still worth the cost?
Posted by Cory Mikesell
Posted by
Cory Mikesell
posted in
Mid Stakes
Is Tom Chamber's PLO book still worth the cost?
With the advent of tools like Poker Juice, does investing the money in Tom's book still make sense? Obviously a GTO approach to PLO can never become obsolete, but how much of the book is actually game theoretically based and how much is just exploitative recommendations for that time period? Thanks!
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None of the current software tools come anywhere near to comparing to Tom's book. That said, the book also doesn't cover everything you need to know about PLO. But it does cover a lot. And interestingly, I find that much of the book is timeless, if perhaps a bit dated in some sections. But it's not a GTO manual at all. It doesn't cover too much about game theory. If you're completely new to game theory then maybe you get something out of it, but if you're only looking for a GTO manual for PLO then you'll probably not be happy with Tom's book.
If it's worth the cost, well, you're the only one who can decide that for yourself. Btw, you do know that you can get parts of the book for less if you want?
Thanks, I did end up purchasing the whole thing. I play 2kNL currently so my game theory background is reasonably solid and I was more in need of PLO ideas that go beyond the basics. I agree totally with your assessment and feel like the book is filling the holes in my PLO specific knowledge quite nicely. I appreciate your feedback!
Ok, gl & happy reading.
FYI, I did create some (course) content that extends some parts of the book, like practical range construction and going deeper into applied game theory and strategic (max exploit and/or balanced) adjustments. More in line with what people are doing in NLHE, but applied to PLO (along with custom software). Not sure if I'll if there will be future courses though, I may try to find another way to package the content. Or not at all. We'll see.
Hi this is Tom. Just to clarify, jonna is correct that the book is not a GTO manual.
There is a chapter on Game Theory that covers several situations. Naked Ace, a turn-river game, a section on using card removal in a GT way, couple other things. And I come back to GT for the River chapter, plus have some GT-like discussions in other sections without the pure analysis. But the book is more precise and exhaustive with combinatorics, equity, and EV than with game theory.
Fwiw I don't think "pure" game-theory is the right way, or even a possible way, to approach most poker situations. Especially in PLO the multi-street games are too complex unless you manipulate them to be pseudo-toy games, which is instructive but that's not the same as being the core of a strategy. For example, the three-street naked ace game is way easier if you pretend sets and board-pairs don't exist. But they do!
The river can be a different story, but river ranges come from pf-flop-turn action sequences, so the majority of the work is determining the ranges, not doing the fun strategy-counterstrategy Mathematics of Poker unexploitablity stuff.
I do think there is a lot of value in understanding game theory, and conceptually applying it. Something as simple as ex-showdown equity is very powerful as a concept, even if it is we never calculate it street-by-street in real play.
Well said. Game theory is just another mental model among many. It's a useful one, but not quite the holy grail that some people make it out to be. This is also why I don't think people need to be overly concerned with solvers. Neither worried about them, or overly focused on their potential benefits.
Just read the free parts of the book and heavily considering 'investing' in the rest of the it (part one and two)
I like the thought of (as he points out) approaching the game from a top down perspective (how a computer would 'think' about the game. I have always just copied what I have seen and done work from the bottom up approach- thinking about a specific hand / spot and then trying to generalize.
If anyone is interested buying the book and going through it together let me know (think it will take quite a bit of time to do it properly)
Tom (if you're still here), I have a question for you.
Your thoughts on if it might be better for me to skip right to the second volume in my situation (slight winner in small-midstakes (200-600 6m), playing professionally plo professionally for around 4 years, but not too well versed (outside of playing and watching vids) in combonatoric and textures?
Heh, a computer doesn't necessarily think top-down ;-) (to the extent that they think at all)
Can you expand please.
Just so we are on the same page....
When I say top-down I think I mean something like: forming the best overall strategies from facts about the game like combinatorics, position, stacks etc.
When I think bottom-up I think looking at characteristics of a specific spot (say how often often opponent does xyz or equity when called), and then creating an overall strategy from what you find.
Oh, relating to computers I just know top down approaches as a general algorithmic approach. I think of it in terms of language parsing, because that's where I first came across it I guess, but it shows up here and there. There are lots of different algorithmic approaches though, and I had never connected any one of them to be how a computer thinks. Neither do I connect Tom's book with being similar to how a computer would think. We may not mean exactly the same thing with top-down and bottom-up though, but that's not important.
That aside, I get what you mean. The whole poker community seems to be focused on a learning approach that is essentially learning from recipe fragments. Someone sits down, plays x number of tables, and speaks randomly about fragments that come up. And then, trying to learn from that inevitably becomes a bottom-up approach, and I know quite well that it doesn't work all that well for some people. (myself for example) So I def. understand the desire for a top-down approach, and if you see that in Tom's book that's great. There's plenty of both there I find, both overview and detail and looking at things from many perspectives.
Fwiw, vol 1 is full of useful information that you don't automatically pick up from playing the game, and vol 2 builds on that and refers back to it. Both volumes well worth it if you have the $$'s imo. And it's def. a book to not only read, but WORK through. With a friend is a good idea.
I'll get to the latest questions within a few hours. Just saw them, in the middle of some stuff.
The first section of the introduction to Volume 1 of the book is actually an explicit discussion of top-down versus bottom-up, although framed in terms of theoretical versus empirical approaches. My usage is exactly what sted suggested. When I think of top-down, I think of a learning evolution from theoretical to empirical. When I think of bottom-up, I think of the reverse.
The theoretical approach starts with all the structural math of the game and the tools needed to analyze decisions, then uses that information to determine general strategies, then works within those general strategies to analyze specific situations. The empirical approach starts with hand history/situational analysis and over time gathers data that then (maybe) leads to a generalized strategy. I'm thinking of things like deep HEM analysis of many hands combined with general intuition developed about common situations.
Neither way is right or wrong. I happen to do things theoretical --> empirical.
The section in question is called Two Approaches to Poker Study and available free here:
http://www.plotheory.com/#!freepreview/cvy
The first section of Part 1 of the preview.
Hi! I bought modules 10B, 10C, 10D and 10E, and was given the correct password and user name, but when I try to open it it says: No permission (w29)
Can anybody help me?
Message Tom
Problem solved :)
yeah, there's like a five step manual process in getting the security right and sending the email w the files and I biffed a step. Sorry Ephedrine!
I'm working on getting it more automated with paypal buttons etc. But with the modules pricing even that's impossible and to have protected pdf manage a direct link b/t buy-it-now and processing the permissions and delivery requires their much more $ premium package so I just handle it manually.
And yes please, anyone who buys something and has a technical issue, message me asap. I've pretty much seen them all and facepalm myself and fix it. And I get quick response from protected pdf support when I need it. Quicker than you would, I think.
Hoping you might still be responding here Tom. I want to buy Chapter 3 of Volume 1 because combinatorics is a key part of my studies, and in the preview it says that "Appendix A" is necessary for this chapter.
However there is no mention of Appendix A on the official website. is this something that comes automatically with the purchase of any of the Chapter 3 modules, or is it built in to the pages of those modules where needed? I am asking because I will probably start with only module 3A to see what i am getting.
Thanks
For Example, is this part of Appendix A?
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