How to transition from NLHE to PLO?

Depends on how did you do at nlhe. What BRM ure using claiming it would be enough for PL100? SH plo variance is 2-3x higher than nlhe FR.

As in nlhe, zoom is tighter, pots are smaller. Table selection allows to bumhunt, takes more time, hands are played slower. I would offer regular tables.

Playing cash tables, cant answer. I make round 500VPP per day in PL25, playing 6-8 regular tables.

I wouldnt do that - you want all your attention on plo if youre learning. Separate sessions is the best. Pretty sure about that.

Try taking shots at around pl25 - thats where people start to think A BIT. pl10 is said to be hardly beatable for some because on insane rake. Even when you beat it - it might look that your winrate is too small to climb up yet.

Shiro 12 years, 1 month ago

I'm using 150BI BRM.

You say 500 VPP per day at PLO25 - how many hours/hands is that exactly?

Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago

Well maybe this is stupid advise, but i switched to plo when fulltilt closed down, and i was kinda waiting to reopen, actually that was time when i started to play poker , i had cuple months nl experience total
I decided to play fake chips PLO on stars, and its very good experience to feel how card flows how it turns out what wins what loses when to bet etc
You can use 1-2 hours of fake chips for a month to get a feeling beside playing your normal games
Its fun cause learning process doesnt cost you much and you can always go crazy and see any hand to end and out of curiousity, and when you get the feeling for game you can switch to some lower stakes and see it from there

I would also advise starting at 25PLO if you wanna learn the game and have sufficient funds/experience playing some form of poker (you clearly do if you've been beating 100NL+).

However, as for making 1k VPPs a day, you might struggle. I would estimate it takes about 5k hands for that, which would be like 8 hours 8-tabling or something sick. And obviously this isn't how you wanna learn so that's not ideal.

Realistically, if you want to learn the game without 'paying your tuition,' you may have to sacrifice that VPP goal for a little while. That or play short, 2-4 table sessions, and also play your normal NLH games for the VPPs.

Shiro 12 years, 1 month ago

Wouldn't Zoom be better then - for those shorter 2-4 table sessions?

I think i've got a semi-decent grasp on preflop play in my head. So wouldn't choosing Zoom be more beneficial because of getting into experience-bringing postflop situations more frequently in the same amount of time?

I don't like Zoom for learning 'cas you are just playing a load of hands w/o context versus nits. You could certainly play it if you want, it's still PLO and you'll still learn, I just don't think it's the best environment 'cas you can't build up an image and the postflop play is unusually nitty (read: people have much tighter ranges pre and don't bluff a lot post). That said, Zoom does allow you to generate VPPs a lot faster.

Shiro 12 years, 1 month ago

I'll definitely keep this in mind, thanks.

No offense, but playmoney plo is an ABSOLUTE joke, 5way flops in 3bet pots, everyone checkcalling all streets to see who has what. PL2 is way tougher while still a complete joke. Players there dont know what they are drawing, dont know what do they have.

Forgot to write i grind for 10hours+. I.e. today, 4.6k hh, 730 VPP. Hasnt been an exceptional day. So 2.3k hh is 700~ VPP on pl50, and so on.

Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago

Lmao yes its 5 way flops in 3 betted or 10 betted pots, but is very interesting to get a feeling what will win, how AA stands in multiway pots in PLO ( very different then in nl when you dont have trouble to call 4 way allin with it ) how plays different draws after flop, what happens when you hit flop great but basicly you are drawn out of hand till river almost always, and yes, its not real but of what i experienced at PL2 its almost same, and its good for nolimit player to get a feeling just of a game flow
What i did first time when i sat at PLO was tilts umm rush with lol i think was highest rush, and i pushed allin with Ace of color rerereraise to allin, and i was thinking i got a flush because there was 4 of the color on board :S
Im not suggesting the person posting is as silly, but game is quiet diffrent, you get to be super happy when you hit top 2 pair in nolimit whilst you gotta proceed with caution in PLO with regards to all draws out and actually when to build pot when to try keep it low as possible..all those things arent bad just to feel a lil in fake tho is funny to play it

For a nlhe grinder with decent amount of experience (low stakes) getting a feel will not take long, and what you can get in playmoney games is maybe some idea about preflop equity, postflop play doesnt exist. Watching one decent coaching video and playing 10 mins at playmoney tables will make you never come there, even if you have never been dealt 4 cards before.

That is for anyone who has a decent poker understanding and has already experienced how does climbing up the stakes and improving at some game works. I played nl2 FR long time ago, did a huge break, came and crushed pl2 with just basic understanding of the game, so i am sure that small stakes nlhe grinder (dont confuse with micro, (small stakes starts from 1/2) can easily start from pl25 as

Teach_Me_PLO 12 years, 1 month ago

"Shiro I'm using 150BI BRM."

I can honestly never tell where the general PLO grinder consensus falls with regards to BRM. I've spoken to longtime winners that say they would be happy playing 25PLO-100PLO with 30 BI until they move through these limits and then settle it with 50+ BI BRM.

I would like to hear everyones opinion on this subject as I am planning to transition to PLO.

I like to 40BIs for a game, at least. Usually make myself win until I have 80BIs (40 for next stakes), then I'll take a 4 BI shot and, if I lose, win them back at the stake below. Not the quickest way of moving up, but I like to be very sure I am a winning player in a game before progressing.

Shiro 12 years, 1 month ago

Keep in mind that I'm making a living out of it - i have to be safe by using conservative bankroll management approach. I don't have some easy-go-around backup plan or rich parents to help me out if i'd ever be retarded enough to go broke. I've heard opinions (Dusty Schmidt f.e.) that 100 (up to 200) BI per limit is absolute standard - if that's your only income source.

If it's what you do for a living, then yes, 100BIs seems completely sensible.

ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago

If you're playing for a living, use 200+ BI for playing PLO full-time. Sounds ridiculous, but isn't. ;-)

200+ BI for PLO100 200/400/600 is ridiculous, unless you don't realize you suck because if you run that bad, you deserve to lose it all. Over 900k+ hand sample playing b/w PLO100 to 600 I have never lost more than 15 BIs (in a row), if even that much: Newcomers tend to get scared off by the high variance in PLO: its not as bad as they claim it to be, unless playing HU against maniac monkeys. 30 BIs for those limits is more than enough (personal exp.)

I don't think playing off 30BIs is a good at all for a few reasons:

1) We have no idea if you're a winning player and it could take a little while for you to get there. You do not want to play a game where the cost of tuition could be damaging to your profitability in Hold'Em (ie you reduce your roll to such an extent that you can't play your normal NL games). You are looking to expand into PLO whilst continuing to live off of poker which means that your primary concern MUST be maintaining your ability to earn money through the Hold'Em games you currently beat. For that reason, conservative stake selection would make most sense.

2) Most players suffer larger downswings that 15 buyins. Either GG has a very substantial edge in these games such that his downswings come in the form of periods of reduced profitability/small losses, or he has been very fortunate (if you run variance sims for a player with a 5BB/100 and 10BB/100 winrate, you'll see over 200k hands that the former can lose substantially if he runs poorly, whereas the later basically won't lose).

3) You want to 8-table in the end which requires more than 25 buyins imo - after all, you don't want to have a poor session or two and find you have so little in your account that you might not be able to top up everywhere.

Simple fact is, conservative bankroll management won't harm your development substantially beyond slowing your progression up stakes, but aggressive management could, if things go badly, prove catastrophic for your ability to derive consistent income from online poker. As with most things, it's a risk/reward judgment, I am merely offering my advice that you proceed with a measure of caution.

Shiro 12 years, 1 month ago

I agree with 5carab on this one. You're hammer crushing these stakes GG - or the real swing is yet to come for you (wish not). 15BI at most seems really amazing since i've seen 15BI under EV in one session in NLHE even.

I'm not even trying to compare my PLO skill to yours - so whereas 30BI does fine for you, i highly doubt it would do for me at the moment.

Either way, I prefer to be safe than sorry. I have many years of online play to come and don't feel like trying hard to get to 5/10 asap. I just need to get to the skill level where i can choose from best NLHE & PLO tables, mix them - profit and get SNE on top of that (next year would be IT). So i guess i'll start small with seperate sessions, then after month or two - I'll reevaluate.

PLO is a completely different game than NLHE that players on these stakes desperately fail to see this & when you catch their errors (which is frequent), the payoffs are huge. The player pool isn't a threat, its mostly dependent on your exploitation of them. What I mean is, its much more profitable (& less costly on your variance) to just 4-6 table PLO100, fully focus in to develop player specific reads & tendencies & just abuse them. They're going to err soooooooooooo much in your favor that if you're really struggling or just barely beating these games, you need to readjust your game, dwell deeper into it & the concept of it.

This is completely different from competent players on higher stakes, who will pick up on your tendencies & play back correctly at you, forcing you into tough spots where variance becomes much more of an issue because your edge will be more difficult to attain. Here BRM is increasingly important, & in fact might be viewed as a skill itself, where 30 BIs, especially if you're just starting, is suicidal. However, this is not the case in low stakes PLO.

Most of these smaller stakes guys I've seen on forums (this one included) want to see vids at their stakes because the high stakes play is much different than at their level & doesn't affect them as much, This should be completely the opposite. When you begin realizing where your 'standard' leaks are & why you are making them & are able to witness a player like Phil's thought process, picking apart tendencies & exploring ways to exploit formidable opponents & tough situations, it takes only a slight realization & adjustment on your part to put that into effect on your stakes. But this obviously requires you to be a competent player yourself & be familiarized w/ the the game as well as know how to profitably exploit & adjust to tendencies. BRM becomes much more important as you move up higher in stakes.

But as regards to your situation, I don't even recommend starting out in cash games. You said your familiar w/ articles, concepts, vids, etc. but very limited w/ the play in itself: you should start out slow. Multi-table midstakes tourneys to get a grasp because once again, PLO is entirely different than NLHE. Continue profiting from your NL until you feel confident in PLO to start profiting from it. Start w/ a few tourneys (particularly the rebuy ones) & proceed from there. As far as BIs are concerned, it is also very much player dependent, but a safer route would be around 50 BIs for you after familiarizing w/ the concepts & approaches to the game, on PLO100 (or PLO50 but I've never played that low)

PS: as far as Gerhardt von Goll, its not my name, it comes out of:
http://gravitys-rainbow.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

I would strongly advise against using tournaments as a cash game primer for PLO. Learning to play 20bb poker is fine, but you will gain no experience in the complexities of postflop play (particularly turn and river) which are absolutely vital once you get into 100bb+ games. If you just want experience running equities, then I guess tournaments will work, but why not play cash games w/ short stacks?

Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago

i would second to 5carab disagreeing in starting plo in MTT games
MTT games have different pace and position and stack sizes count v much, and game is total different then PLO cash game, same as nl cash table and nl mttls - worlds apart, different game strategy and approach

Well the famous "Plo from scratch" article series suggests holding 40BI for current stakes and 10BI for next stakes, just to take a 10BI shot. However: this is for constant moving up. I personally am using 40BI for next stakes before i take a shot. PL2-5 was a stable grind for me (30+bb/100 ignores variance), I missed pl10 because of huge rake and scary stories about people forever stuck there, and atm I am feeling safe with my 40BI BR here (well actually itll be more than that).

Tl;dr: I think that 40BI while youre digging through micro stakes is enough, I would think pl2-5 can be grinded with starting 20-30 BIs.

P.S. I ran 50BIs from EV in pl2, so wghat do I know..

Shiro 12 years, 1 month ago

From NLHE point of view, it's hard for me to see 40 BI as safeground in a game with higher variance. I've got few millions of NLHE hands played and 30 BI (FR) swings & 50 BI swings (SH) are not ultra rare.

DirtyD 12 years, 1 month ago

In the middle of trying to learn PLO myself. I'd recommend separate PLO and NL sessions, at least to start. If you want to learn you need to be able to think through every decision.

jloo87 12 years, 1 month ago

to be honest the rake is so high @ small stakes PLO that I think its best to keep playing NLHE until you have a roll for 100PLO.

Shiro 12 years, 1 month ago

TBH I don't mind about rake at all, with triple supernova atm. The question is - wouldn't it be -EV to jump into too deep waters (PLO100) without real table experience?

ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago

1) Play few tables and focus on learning. Play as high as you feel comfortable with. If you're rolled for $100PLO, playing a bit of $50PLO to begin with sounds about right. Play few tables, select them well, and think hard. Shouldn't be so swingy if you play tight and solid.

2) I'd say regular tables for now. Wait with Zoom until you've got the fundamentals down and you have trained a working auto-pilot for the trivial spots. This is important, since you'll base less of your strategy on reads in Zoom.

3) Probably best to keep NLHE and PLO sessions separate when learning the new game.

Shiro 12 years, 1 month ago

Anyone mind posting their VPP/hand on these limits with like 100k hands+ sample? There's stat for that in HM/OM2 reports...

All i can give you is 0.15VPP/hand in PL25 in 11k hh sample.
And thats table selecting bit higher VPIP and pot tables

P.S. I'm a 23/16 TAGlike atm.

Nic Morgan 12 years, 1 month ago

forget vpps if you rly want to learn the game. playing more than 6 tbles when first starting would be a bad idea imo and 4 is prolly better. if you work hard tho you could be out of this beginning process in like 2 months or something and not have to give up that much in rb or whatever stars does.

Played .50/1 today 756 hands to see if the rake is as as bad as they say, since I haven't played it almost in 6 months: it is, I can't believe I never noticed how high it was: what a jip by PS. But most of the players are extremely exploitable tho & some are just plain horrific (some even playing up to 6 tables). To profit from these stakes seems much easier then when I played them 6 months back: the player pool feels much weaker, but then again, 700 hands is extremely small sample.

As far as VPPs: I earned 580 VPPS in 756 hands, so yes, a 1000 is easily attainable playing under 2k hands. Player pool is generally weak, rake is atrocious (but its effect imo wont prevent winning player), earning sufficient VPPS isnt a problem. But since you're saying that you live off of this, I'm not sure if you're willing to lose a lot learning a new game. But from personal exp., when I had around 2500 I was very comfortable playing these stakes w/o even coming close to busting, the player pool is just so weak I can't see how a competent player can't beat it.

With that said, I recommend starting out in tourneys, only because you live off of your poker salary, to get a feel for it w/o any real risk, while continuing your NL play. Then when you feel ready to move to cash game, start at .50/1: if you have the grasp for understanding PLO, there's no need to go below w/ the BR you've mentioned. Unless you're suicidal enough to play HU at those stakes, the variance won't be much of an issue. GL

Shiro 12 years, 1 month ago

Great post, thanks.

(BTW was it regular tables 0.5/1 or Zoom?)