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hitting top2 OTT, facing Pot donk

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Posted by posted in Low Stakes

hitting top2 OTT, facing Pot donk

UTG: $110.91
HJ: $42.85
CO: $29.74
BN: $50 (Hero)
SB: $26.14
BB: $20
Preflop ($0.75) (6 Players)
Hero was dealt J Q T T
UTG calls $0.50, HJ folds, CO folds, Hero raises to $2.25, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $1.75
Flop ($5.25) 3 Q 2 (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $3.40, UTG calls $3.40
Turn ($12.05) 3 Q 2 J (2 Players)
UTG bets $11.51, Hero calls $11.51
River ($35.07) 3 Q 2 J A (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero checks
utg is 52\25 wtsd 31
2.5 k hands
56% fold cb flop
donk turn 14%

shove OTT is senseless, right?

6 Comments

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Zachary Freeman 12 years ago
Shoving is not senseless. I'd only flat unless I think his betting range is really polarized and that he may continue bluffing river with low equity hands.
JimmyGlass 12 years ago
i DONT think his range is any polorized in this spot w his stats. i'm giving him top2 + some big wraps. set of 3s\deuces sometimes.
Caantpayrent 12 years ago
you should be shoving the turn, if for nothing else balance, so when he check/calls the flop and pot leads the turn id almost never give credit for a set, he's not leading the turn with a flopped set, and if he did turn it why pot it when it was likely you'd continue on the turn, so on the turn where he pots it, he's either got top 2 (your hand), or a just two pair, he also could have a wrap, 8910j..and was being aggressive with his semi bluff, other than that he could of just floated the flop and decided to bluff the turn and when u called he was shutting down, but back to my original point he almost never has you beat on the turn so by shoving you could get a call form his wrap and you could get your hand to fold....so you get your profit form either of these situations

the other reason you should/could shove, is because by not shoving the turn then what are you shoving here?? id imagine sets or better?? so even if he in the future has a set of 2's if your only shoving a set even that has to fold...so over all the reasons you should shove the turn you may get a crying call from a wrap or you may find some equity from your hand folding, and it allows a set of 2's and your hand to call when you have a set in the future....also by shoving you can protect from rivers that make it impossible to get value from worse hands eg the A that ended up hitting

Please heart if you like what i had to say and let me know where i went wrong if you didnt.... :)
JimmyGlass 12 years ago
the sets are rare here - i completely agree, still we'll see some on SD
but i either dont believe in wraps here. the only draw would look like JQKT or 9 insted of K

so I didnt find a serious reason for protecting a hand

frankly saying - still really tricky spot for me, and i DO NOT see a shove here vs this guy
TJ Serdar 12 years ago
So, sets are basically irrelevant here. I feel like the crux of the situation revolves around whether or not a turn shove gets value from worse 2pr's (Q3/Q2/J3/J2) or weirdly played 345,456,A45 type stuff, or if a call gains a river bet from whatever air he can show up with on the river. I would expect that since he ch/ca flop, he has a lot less total air. The only stuff I could come up w/ would be like 356* that peeled flop then led turn as a semi bluff.
Caantpayrent 12 years ago
if nothing else the fact that most of the time on the turn you have the best hand (he never plays a flopped set like this), so by shoving now you get action from top 2 pair and bottom set when you shove middle set... and there small equity you get from the times he has your hand top2....if you shove and he turned his wrap then you may get a call, but by waiting to the river you only get called by hands that beat you and never by ones that dont, also if he turned a weak two pair with a gut shot or open ender then you'll get a call but once again only on the turn, once you get to the river he's folding his weak two pair and calling/shoving his straight.....

just to clear up, almost no set is checked oop on flop then followed up by a leading pot bet with no obvious draws to protect against, when by all means he had reason to believe you would continue the turn, so he could almost commit himself, by check raising the turn with his set...so i think that its very very unlikely he did this....

so equity gained by shoving turn, get called from weak two pair with straight draws, get called from big wrap, get called from top pair with a big wrap, you gain when he folds your hand, (top two no straight draws), and you gain equity when now they have reason to call with top two and bottom set.....

by letting the river hit, no missed wrap calls, no weak two pair calls, and if a 68910kA it more or less shuts you down, as you two pair has no value against anything that would shove, only good for catching a bluff, (ps a 6 maybe not he'd bet the flop with a low wrap, or at least not check/call, pot lead)

what did he end up having by the way??

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