General Discussion about stacking off with AA in 4bet pots
Posted by Mystic
Posted by
Mystic
posted in
Mid Stakes
General Discussion about stacking off with AA in 4bet pots
So I noticed that I lose a lot of money with very little equity in 4bet pots lately. The scenario is usually that I 4bet AA, often times bad AA, but what can we do preflop anyway?
I realize that flops, such as QKT, QJT, etc are very bad and should be check-folded or slow played in order to protect our range. However, what's the general rule for 4bet pots on somewhat bad board textures, such as J86 for example. Clearly, we are never favorite on them but there is so much money in the middle already and we stack off with 100bb deep. How do we handle those situations with 120bb+ stacks?
Are we actually meant to not 4bet weak AA 150+ bb deep?
Loading 18 Comments...
It depends.
There are two common spots that I do like to flat some AA vs a 3 bet. One is when we are UTG and the SB 3 bets, as well as when we are on the BTN and we are 3 bet by a player in the blinds. Being in position allows us to play a little better in 3 bet pots and we are taking some of not only our weaker aces, but even some of our double suited AA and playing them a little slower in theory to essentially trap and give us great playability on some textures where we get it in dominating with a pair+FD. We may fold out hands that we crush too often, so that's why in position I think we can consider flatting some times.
Depends on the population as well. Some looser populations tend to overvalue KK/QQ combos for example and will 3 bet a decent amount of those (especially KK), but if stacks start to become effectively quite deep and the SPR starts creeping up towards 2+, then we need to be a little more cautious on boards like J86 as we often at best are around 40% or less vs his whole range and are likely in rougher shape if he does decide to get it in. That's also why it's important to be able to show up in theory with some combos like A987ds and 9876ds when 4 betting so that your opponent can't just exploitatively jam those middling textures.
Let's assume your opponents never fold vs a 4bet, would you still consider not 4betting some AA pre? What I mean is, the guys in my games are 3betting all sort of ds trash, such as J856ds, KQ45ds, etc. They even call 4bets with AQQ4ss.
However, all those trashy hands flop equity on many flops. So when holding AA24ss, or even AA23r, I wonder whether 4betting makes any sense or not as we are pushing roughly 60% equity on average. However, on the flop, I usually end up not pushing any equity at all but am instead often times behind or flipping.
So would you ever consider not 4betting bad AA vs maniacs 100bb deep and if you would anyway, at which stack depth would you just flat?
Mystic I think if they are calling really wide against 4 bets and are even showing up with worse pairs, then I think we need to push that edge, especially given the fact that with those types of players they may just put us in awkward spots on the flop to where maybe we are prone to making mistakes, whereas it's never going to be a mistake preflop to push AA against those types of players. You will not only be making the hand easier to play, but also possibly and more importantly just taking the most profitable line anyway. If they want to get in there with lots of junk, especially worse PP's, then yes probably increase your 4 betting frequency to close to, if not 100% with AA combos IMO.
i have to add Ive heard it is not a good idea to add medium high hands like medium rundowns (9876ds) into the 4bet range cause at SPR1 any hit goes in so we we are more in danger to be dominated. Exception would be you are balancing to have sth on more lower board textures but that would not be necessary until you are up against rly good opponents?
you are just running bad. AA are almost always ahead in equity vs their range except on a few straight flops. you are ahead on J86ss.
the reason you r/c some AA in GTO is because villain will 3b/f. if villain never folds, you should 4b your AA and more.
there are software out there to tell you exactly what AA to call and what else to 4B (9876ds is never a 4b at 200z). dont need to read a bunch of word salad from Nick
"word salad" is pretty good haha. What rundowns do you suggest because I think when we are OOP in theory we should be 4B some (not many of course) rundowns for board coverage? Do you just mean in practice we shouldn't be 4B based on the population we are against because I can for sure subscribe to that?
It depends on your position and relative position, but AT98ds, AT97ds, AT86ds are always R/4B 100BB at 200z. You need non AA hands in your 4B range and these are the best candidates (and contrary to popular beliefs AKK are rarely 4bs).
I am playing 200 on Party and people squeeze QQ43ds, most ds KK and even T876ds. I have even seen a reg 4bet Ak85ss from UTG vs my 3bet from the blinds. Yesterday a guy, cold 4bet AQ88ds.
So if that happens, why wouldn't you want to 4bet AKK? Isn't AKK basically the same hand as AAk, if you are up against such a range as described above? Shouldn't we then probably even 4bet AQQJ, AQJJ and AJJT?
Yep, I don't disagree with any of that considering I basically implement that strat. I have thrown in some rundowns just because it made sense to me to have board coverage with that type of hand, but I may have enough with the AT98ds/AT86ds combos. I have ran solves that had some rundowns in there as R/4B, but most are flatted for obvious reasons.
thats new for me that you dont 4bet AKK.. I have the experience that A blocker has quite an impact, against looser 3-bettors we can play it like AA and stick in nrly any flop and I do get a lot of folds or even calls from worse.. but im not playing plo200 so different player tendencies maybe?
on the other hand, if a range is loose, it does not matter who plays it, the likelyhood to get outdrawn with your overpair remains roughly the same on relating board textures..
also good canditates afaik are ABBBds, ABCCds and NNNNds
if you want to play 200 on Party forever, you can do whatever u think is best and disregard fundamental.
AKKX isnt AAKX, and you need to protect your calling range.
Depending on positions, we do often 4B AQQX, AJJX, even ATTX.
The problem I have lately is that if I flat AKKx, like I normally do, the population simply cbets basically any board texture for 3/4 pot and they don't really fold vs a jam. Because of that, it seems like my AKK range is still ahead of theirs even on J56 flops yet I don't feel confident getting it in or calling a flop bet with nothing but two backdoor draws.
That's why I thought it might be better to 4bet pre to avoid such spots and push the equity I have instead of folding equity on many flops? Is my assumption correct, that protecting my range at PLO 200 is not as much of a big deal?
Like I said, if you want to be stuck at 200 forever, you can disregard fundamental and poker theory and avoid tough spots and “make hands easier to play”.
Or you can learn to play good poker so you can try to move up.
Very good point, I actually think its one of my major leaks, to try to rather sort of "get it in and hope" to simply avoid spots where I clearly have no clue what to do. Of course, that's simply human being :)
Would you recommend working with Monker to figure out what to do with mediocre holdings in 3bet pot or would that be too GTO based and not useful for PLO 200 population?
is there a big difference in plo200 to plo500?
PLOMatrix for preflop, solver for postflop, that's all you need.
GTO based strategy crush 200z, dont believe what others tell you.
What are suggested pre flop hands for 3b/4b esp when u have position ?
Be the first to add a comment