so donking in HU pots is something i very rarely do, I barely do it all unless stacks are very shallow with ~1psb left. do any of you incorporate a donking range in heads up pots? how do the dynamics differ in single raised pots to 3b pots? what sort of range do you donk with and what are the pros and cons of it? how is it interpreted by opponents? thinking of starting to incorporate a donking range, mainly just to keep people on their feets and having to do some guess work/not knowing whats going on, but just looking for some technical reasons to do it and how to start incorporating it correctly
13 Comments
Loading 13 Comments...
Lenny Seward12 years, 3 months agoFor me, one of the main things when deciding whether to donk or not is whether or not if it's worse to have the flop/turn checked through than to bet. This can be anything from protecting strong hand to trying to fold out portions of villains check back range that can turn backdoor equity. That second part is one of the best reasons IMO because against passive players it can be tough sometimes when the flop checks through and the turn goes B/C. Their range is weak, but it can still be hard to narrow it down. If you can donk and get them to fold bottom pair+BDFD+2 Overs that is a good thing.
I personally love donking. It can put people in pretty tough spots with mid strength hands. It takes away the initiative, it makes them face a likely double/triple barrel and can disguise your hand. It also can put them off balance and turn their hand range face up.
Sam Lang12 years, 3 months agothese are some of the reasons i 'feeled' for wanting to start donking, but i couldn't quantify/justify it in words. good stuff, thanks! Sam Lang12 years, 3 months agohow do you deal with people who donk a well balanced range? do you think that two players of similiar skill set, which is gonna be more successful vs each other, someone who donks alot, someone who rarely donks or a balnce in between?Di Dang12 years, 3 months agoThis is good for sure. In addition, I think another important consideration donking (especially as a bluff) is that you need to be able to fire a lot of turns. Else most good players will own you in position. Like if you have some backdoor draws, it'l help with turn play especially against players who float in position too often.
Say you have Ac2cxxx on J54cc. You have a gutshot but if the board comes club on the turn, you have probably another profitable bluff spot (and on the river as well). Lenny Seward12 years, 3 months agoDi, did you mean Ac2xxx? If so, then that is definitely a great play and shows that donking a balanced range is very powerful.
Sam, I think donking can be overdone and you can't just donk all the time and try to barrel people off hands because they'll just start slow playing and raise later streets with lower SPR. It also can widen our opponents ranges if they're on the more passive side. For example, if you're playing against someone who has well defined ranges it might not be beat to donk and widen their range when you can make better plays by having them reveal their hand strength to you. I think donking a well balanced range is a great strategy and can be used in a variety of situations.Bill12 years, 3 months agoI'll use a donk bet vs. only specific player types. I've found, like Di mentioned, in certain spots you can get people to call you down lighter and become more passive. I've also found some players tend to feel more comfortable raising donk bets to try and get a better feel for your range, which is clearly exploitable. Basically, I feel donk betting is a good spot when you have a feel for the players turn/river passiveness/aggressiveness. I tend to not use it vs. players I don't know well.Schu12 years, 3 months agoall great posts above... so yes, you do need to be able to donk off at times with forethought. If you are going to think about it in terms of ranges as opposed to board textures, you'll need to incorporate draw heavy holdings to be able to maintain some assemblance of probability to take down the hand in a show down. I think pure donking can become a dangerous addiction.
mason88 12 years, 3 months agoummm i'm someone who donk out a lot and i find that people usually assume it is pretty strong and usually don't mess around with it (atleast below 1/2deep). it usually makes people fold a lot of overpairs without any other connectivity (e.g. 10 8 4 cc... they will fold KK35 without backdoor flush almost everytime to a 2/3 pot donk)... Backdoors are also extremely important to have for double barreling and possibly triple barreling. Hands that you don't want to CR or CC and too weak to check fold are awesome hands to donk. But if you do incorporate donking, it can possibly screw up your other ranges and how others play against your other lines (e.g. cc and cr)...
Saša Zorc12 years, 3 months agoSome of the hand types that are good for donk betting, but weren't mentioned yet: -Hands that are just a bit too weak to check call (Includes draws and weak top pair type hands), works best when you aren't drawing to the nuts otherwise check raise might be better -Hands that can get it in on the flop but are hard to play turns with if you check raise (ie set on a very slippery board), works best against people who fight your donks by raising
Donking is very difficult to incorporate because it really depends on how your opponents respond to it, which is very hard to predict before you start implementing a donking range. I find it best to start with hands that are too strong to c/c (but you don't wanna raise) or hands that are too weak to c/c (but have some equity). Also important, is considering boards on which hands you want to call or fold to a bet will check behind (as Lenny touched on).
After you've started, adjusting your donking range to your opponent's tendencies is much like adjusting your 3betting game in NLHE to their tendencies. You can skew more towards value or bluffs, and you can also adjust based on the likelihood you get raised and which hands you would hate to bet-fold or would like to bet-3betSauce12312 years, 3 months agoNice points Sasa, agree I think(?)
The number one criteria I use for donking is when my range flops so well that (a) Hold hands which want to get all in more frequently than my opponent, and (b) I have a lot of equity in the pot with my range.
I feel like I can't very well check then, cause a smart opponent is just going to checkback incredibly frequently. And it seems like I can slice a portion of my handrange off my checking range and put it in my donking range such that my checking range still have the makeup of a more normal checking range, but I don't let my opponent check back as often.
Saša Zorc12 years, 3 months agoFrequency wise, I think i donk like 10-15% vs unknowns, adjusting a lot mainly based on opponent cbet%.
Sam Lang
posted in
Mid Stakes
Loading 13 Comments...
I personally love donking. It can put people in pretty tough spots with mid strength hands. It takes away the initiative, it makes them face a likely double/triple barrel and can disguise your hand. It also can put them off balance and turn their hand range face up.
Say you have Ac2cxxx on J54cc. You have a gutshot but if the board comes club on the turn, you have probably another profitable bluff spot (and on the river as well).
Sam, I think donking can be overdone and you can't just donk all the time and try to barrel people off hands because they'll just start slow playing and raise later streets with lower SPR. It also can widen our opponents ranges if they're on the more passive side. For example, if you're playing against someone who has well defined ranges it might not be beat to donk and widen their range when you can make better plays by having them reveal their hand strength to you. I think donking a well balanced range is a great strategy and can be used in a variety of situations.
-Hands that are just a bit too weak to check call (Includes draws and weak top pair type hands), works best when you aren't drawing to the nuts otherwise check raise might be better
-Hands that can get it in on the flop but are hard to play turns with if you check raise (ie set on a very slippery board), works best against people who fight your donks by raising
Actually, great points by everyone in the thread.
Donking is very difficult to incorporate because it really depends on how your opponents respond to it, which is very hard to predict before you start implementing a donking range. I find it best to start with hands that are too strong to c/c (but you don't wanna raise) or hands that are too weak to c/c (but have some equity). Also important, is considering boards on which hands you want to call or fold to a bet will check behind (as Lenny touched on).
After you've started, adjusting your donking range to your opponent's tendencies is much like adjusting your 3betting game in NLHE to their tendencies. You can skew more towards value or bluffs, and you can also adjust based on the likelihood you get raised and which hands you would hate to bet-fold or would like to bet-3bet
The number one criteria I use for donking is when my range flops so well that (a) Hold hands which want to get all in more frequently than my opponent, and (b) I have a lot of equity in the pot with my range.
I feel like I can't very well check then, cause a smart opponent is just going to checkback incredibly frequently. And it seems like I can slice a portion of my handrange off my checking range and put it in my donking range such that my checking range still have the makeup of a more normal checking range, but I don't let my opponent check back as often.
Be the first to add a comment