Best line for quads here?
Posted by chuBuBBawuB
Posted by
chuBuBBawuB
posted in
Low Stakes
Best line for quads here?
SB: $20.58 (Hero)
BB: $117.49
UTG: $8.71
HJ: $45.20
CO: $10.22
UTG folds, HJ folds, CO folds, BN folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BB calls $0.20
I'm a PLO n00b and new to this forum as well. I'll probably make a few posts here in the next couple of months while I muck about at tiny stakes to get a grounding with a view to moving up and making it my main game sometime next year. So please be rigorous in exposing any fundamental mistakes I make.
Onto the hand then (btw I couldn't make the separate boxes work so it's all coming here).
14 hands on BB and he's 71/36 with AFactor 1 CB 0/2 FvCB 0/2
Hopefully pre is standard although is there any merit to making it smaller oop 200bb deep?
Flop- c-bet for value. Could go bigger but I've tended to be c-betting around 2/3 pot. Any rationale for different flop sizings?
Turn- I'm guessing he folds a tonne when I bet here. At the same time I know that I would have loads of things I would want to stab with in his spot like missed FD, Kxxx and some boats. Given his low aggression over a tiny sample my line may be bad compared to betting twice and hoping to get called by pocket pairs when he has them. I am planning on checkraising as I wouldn't really expect doublebarrel bluffs or particularly thin v-bets on the river.
River- After missing the checkraise just try to get some value. When raised I guess he slowplayed kkk77 or caught 99977. These hands presumably being in his check behind turn range I guess should incline me more to betting the turn. Thoughts on the 3-bet sizing? I was really guessing at what didn't look the most ridiculously strong (despite my line) and got decent value if he was the type to just snap with the hands mentioned above.
Loading 10 Comments...
I would just barrel turn small as that's how I'd play most of my range as it's such a good turn card for your range. I'd be trying to get value from hands like AK, and PP's that floated flop.
As played river looks fine. I have no clue what he's raise/folding river with. Maybe QQ or turning AK into a bluff? Really weird.
Interesting question: Whose range improves most on this turn, given the action so far? I'm not so sure that it's ours, in a blind vs blind spot.
We have more high pairs given the preflop action, but Villain has position with a deeep stack, and therefore incentive to call preflop with many pairs we won't openraise. He is probably also more likely to have a 7 in his preflop range than we are.
Then the flop action retains air in our range because this is a good flop to bluff as the preflop raiser, and removes air from his range, since this is a bad flop for draws. Curious to know who comes out ahead on the turn.
I decided to look at this hand from villain's range more-so than Hero's since we can get into a few different flop strategies and I'm too lazy right now to map all of that out.
I gave BB top 80% minus a 17% 3b range based on playablity. Assuming he calls flop with Kx, 99-AA, 7***, FD+(tp>,pp,backdoor wrap draw). He's defending flop a little over 50% of the time which seems reasonable on a flop like this. He's probably got to raise some bluffs and raise some value combos in order to defend flop enough, but for simplicity sake I'm assuming he calls with everything he continues with.
On the 7h turn, villain has a full house or better ~65% of the time. Of that 65%, 36.6% of that range is KK,AA,7x.
I can't imagine Hero's range doing better than that so good call on that Zen, looks like you were right that it's better for his range than ours. Looks like I was using more of a nlhe mindset for constructing preflop ranges.
Another point about turn-If hero bets the turn 1/2 pot, villain needs to defend 66% of his turn range. It looks like he can do that by calling turn with 55+ and AK. Hero may get away with a slightly profitable 1/2 pot turn bet once we start looking into removal effects of our own hand.
It does seem like a texture changing card that if hero decides to bet turn, he's often wanting to do it with a range that can follow through on rivers often.
Your line looks good to me. A turn check should induce some stabs, since you'll have a lot of weak hands that must check-fold the turn. When he checks back the turn, he has some hands to call the river with (occasionally a raise-worthy hand), and he has some air that he can bluff with.
The most important hand class to plan against is the bluffcatchers. A river bet lets him call with those and occasionally bluffraise air, whereas a check lets him check back all his bluffcatchers and occasionally stab air. So what's most EV?
I don't think a check will make him overbluff the river after calling preflop, calling flop and checking back turn, since it's obvious to both of you that his range is weak. He will valuebet some pocket pairs, but he gets to choose the size now, and against these hands it's better for you to bet yourself, since he will probably always call regardless of your size. And he might bluffraise air when you bet, which is exceptionally good for you.
Finally, he could have spiked the rivered 99xx overfull or be on a rare slowplay with KK. Betting probably gets in three bets against these hands (if you size the 3-bet so that he can call it), whereas check-raising gets in two.
When he raises the river, I would just click it back and hope he pays off with a pocket pair or overfull, or spazzes out with a rebluff. When you 3-bet big you make it difficult for him to come up with an incorrect response.
Yeah I'm sure my river sizing is awful against a halfthinking player. I was kind of thinking there was practically no chance he was bluffing though, probably an assumption carried over from NLFR and I was also expecting him to likely be the kind to go on instatilt and snap the overfulls despite knowing he was beat. Maybe that's not him, but I'm sure there are plenty at 10PLO who barely consider bluffraising ever and are totally incapable of folding fullhouses. These are my assumptions about microstakes players in general which may be totally incorrect when it comes to PLO. Maybe I am wrong and the average microPLO player is a lot better than this?
I would expect the average $10PLO player to fold anything but an overfull here when you go big. Even if they don't think hard about ranges, they know intuitively that a 7 isn't that rare, and you won't ever go big with less.
Cool, so you think it's likely enough that they raise/call vs the click it back sizing with stuff like QQ that that is better overall vs the chance he has an overfull and calls with it against the big size. Thinking more about it, it does seem to be superunlikely that he does somehow have an overfull here, so I feel like I'm coming more around to your way of thinking.
maybe jus click back and price him in, he cant not call for additional 3 unless total air
Agreed river 3bet should be smaller. Even if he's not a very sophisticated player, it just looks SO much like you have a 7 when you bet/3bet bomb that I think he's gonna find a fold unless he's an unusually huge drooler.
Yup, I prefer slightly smaller OTR 'cas I think it makes his life much harder w/ a hand like JJ or QQ (I mean, it really doesn't, you have a 7 always, but people tend to do stupid shit "'cas of post odds"). That said, I'm also totally willing to believe that he'll just snap his entire value range against any sized raise here at 10PLO given one of the biggest mistakes low-stakes players make is calling WAY too much, especially in spots where they have a hand which they've deemed strong enough to value-bet/raise. In that case, bet/bombing makes the most money.
Be the first to add a comment