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Best Flush Blocker Line

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Posted by posted in High Stakes

Best Flush Blocker Line

BB: $2293.48
BN: $1010
SB: $726.80
Preflop ($15.00) (3 Players)
Hero was dealt 3 6 A A
BN raises $20.00 to $30.00, SB folds, Hero calls $10.00,
Flop ($45.00) 3 9 8 (2 Players)
Hero checks, BN bets $30.00, Hero raises $112.80 to $142.80, BN raises $190.00 to $332.80,
Ok, I have the Ace high flush blocker and my opponent is not representing anything credible. This isn't that tough of a spot but I'm just curious which line we prefer.

1. 4 bet the flop.
2. Call with the intention of check raising the turn. If turn goes ch/ch we can just donk the river.

I can see the 2nd line being more profitable in a vacuum but it does have some inherent risks since villain could turn equity and is closer to showdown. The 1st line takes away those risks.

15 Comments

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Phil Galfond 12 years, 5 months ago
Do you at least have the read that Villain is competent? If not, this gets very read based.

If so, we're looking at a range of 99xx (perhaps other sets) and air, usually... air being the majority. I personally prefer calling here with most of my nut flushes and nut blocker hands. In fact, I've started calling flop in this spot with both more often than not.

We can c/r the turn and/or bet river, as you said. The main benefit to this though (especially calling the first time around) is that it doesn't allow villain to profitably stack off with 99xx (if stacking off on the flop even is profitable in the first place), and it allows us to put in more money with better equity against 2pr or sets.

What I dislike about c/r flop every time is that when you have the blocker (or the flush) and the board pairs, you (kinda) have to give up. By waiting until the turn or river, you can put in more serious money with less or no risk that the board will pair and ruin things for you.

One major side benefit of c/c flop, btw, is that it protects your c/c range, which is otherwise capped (so that he can barrel off even without the blocker)

I rambled but, I like calling here, and I often (but not always) like calling the flop cbet too. Calling is slightly more attractive with your hand since you have a little bit of SD value.
joseph ressler 12 years, 5 months ago
villain is very competent new regular. I mostly short stack so I have a good read on his preflop tendencies. After the flop he seems to not like folding much. Also I should add we were playing in a very fast paced 3 handed game across multiple tables which lends itself to making more moves.

My plan here was obviously to c.raise barrel but I think you make a great note about balance and show down value. I definitely opened myself to get out maneuvered or confused if he decides to make a stand with a set however unlikely that is.
Di Dang 12 years, 5 months ago
Honestly, I check raise nearly every time I have the blocker or the nut flush but I'm glad you made this post because I just realized that my check calling range is capped at a K-high flush or a set/two pair. The drawback is you lose a lot of value versus lower flushes, but no line is superior in every way else poker would be too easy. :)
Phil Galfond 12 years, 5 months ago
I should add, calling again on turn with nut flush is important too, and to balance, I call turn with all of my showdown-able hands with lone Ah (two pair, TP+OESD, etc).
Sean Lefort 12 years, 5 months ago
You don't expect villain to ever show up here with the K-high flush? I know this is a line I often take against regs that are just 100% spazzing with the Ah.

If you have the Ah, you will have a flush ~41% of the time and the lone Ah blocker 59% of the time. (I did this with my rusty old high school combinatorics skills but I'm pretty sure it's accurate.) Of course, there's a touch of bias to increase from 41% given that you're opening suited aces especially more than other hands but given that you're on the BTN with a very wide range I think it's fair to say that it'll still be significantly < 50%, although I'm not completely certain on that. Likely wouldn't take much PPT count work to calculate the % given an X% BTN opening range.

The point is that against someone that is just always spazzing with the Ah and yet also slow-playing the nut flush some X% of the time, I think this is a very valid line with the K/Q-high flush from villain. But I'm also very new to this game so I'm ready and willing to stand corrected.
Di Dang 12 years, 5 months ago
Hey Sean, Nice to meet you buddy!

I like the numbers you posted. I do disagree with you that someone would ever reraise a Q or K high flush even against a spazzing player unless they do at different stakes and I don't know about it?
Lenny Seward 12 years, 3 months ago
Ahh:65%- http://propokertools.com/simulations/count?g=oh&h1=Ahh%3A65%25&s=generic

Ah!hh:65%- http://propokertools.com/simulations/count?g=oh&h1=Ah%21hh%3A65%25&s=generic

Strictly preflop.
Sean Lefort 12 years, 5 months ago
I should have included the note that the 41% is assuming a 100% range.

Also should have noted that if what I say is true and villain does it sometimes, it should +1 for Phil's flop flatting argument.
Phil Galfond 12 years, 5 months ago
Good point, Sean.

I think most people don't play the K high flush this way, but it's certainly a viable option against the right opponents (some give up with the Ah at some point, which makes it better to slowplay).

I haven't run the math, but I'd assume having two hearts in your hand skews the numbers a bit, and a little more so if you have 3.
MaMaMat 12 years, 3 months ago
Say we defend 60% and 3bet 11%, say BTN holds random hand without a heart: then we'll have 56% of the time nutflush, and 44% blocker. If BTN holds 2 hearts it becomes: 47% nutflush, 53% blocker.

Offcourse the wider we defend the more blockers we'll have, with 100% defending range and 0% 3bet, it will become with BTN having 2 hearts: 41% vs 59%. Without 2 hearts: 50%/50%.
Sean Lefort 12 years, 5 months ago
I guess for the sake of Ri1 academia I should quickly explain the math for getting 41%:

Assuming villain has a flush (2 hearts) and discounting the times he has 3 or 4 hearts as fairly negligible, flop has 3 hearts, and hero has 1 heart. Hero has 3 more cards, with 7 hearts left and 44 cards left in the deck.

{ (7/44) + (7/43) + (7/42) } - { 7/44 * 7/43 } - { 7/44 * 7/42 } - { 7/43 * 7/42 } - { 7/44 * 7/43 * 7/42 } = 41%

Note that the 1st bracket represents the sum of the times that one of the cards is a heart while the 2nd-5th brackets represent discounting the double-counted times that hero has more than 2 hearts.
Joeri Van der sman 12 years, 3 months ago
I usually call here with the intention to make a play later in he hand. However i feel like it might very well be better (if oop) to fold. I've been running into top two with a low flush or a set a lot lately in these spots.
pacmang 12 years, 3 months ago
What kind of player is villain?

In my experience this could be a set that isn't willing to fold. If you 4bet he'll probably just shove. It doesn't seem like you will have enough to call and c/jam the turn.
John Beauprez 12 years, 3 months ago
If you're going to follow through with the bluff, I like calling the flop three-bet. As Phil mentioned you can play better against a set this way, and imo to a thinking player I believe this looks more credible than a 4b.

@Phil - I like your entire post, and it made me realize something. I'm really imbalanced in this spot because I will typically always c/r with the nut blocker here, and never check/call it. When I OOP float I always have the K blocker, and also the K high flush. Granted it's not completely imbalanced because I'll also check/raise with the nut flush too, but I will almost never check/call with it.

Something I'd like to point out though is that you mentioned you like check/calling with the nut blocker here. Only reason I don't like that is because it's assumed that we're bluffing (although sometimes we'll have the best hand), but if we check/call, it's difficult to leverage our stack and make him fold sets and worse flushes on later streets. By initiating the polarity advantage on an earlier street, we get to begin leveraging our stack earlier, right? What I'm saying, is that if we check/call with the blocker, what's our plan if villain decides to check/back the turn? I see a lot of villains take this line with a weak flush or set, and just call down on the river after turn checks through.

As you said though, it all comes down to player tendencies in this spot. If you're confident that his c-bets are polar than we can confidently check/call and either c/r the turn or lead the river, but if you think he bets small flushes and sets (some players don't), then it's probably better to c/r the flop and build the pot early.

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