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Beginner Questions

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Beginner Questions

Iv'e played a decent amount of hands of PLO, but always with a bad approach. My idea was that since hand equities run close together, I could simply out-agro people IP by 3betting a lot and just being very aggressive in general. The idea was that I could make them fold a lot of marginal hands and even when my range was way behind theirs, I could make up for it with position and PLO swonginess. However, as you can imagine, that idea worked much better in theory than in practice. So, I've decided to begin taking it seriously by forgetting everything I know and starting over. Therefore, I have some very basic questions that I would like to get out of the way if someone is willing to help me. If you read this all the way though, then thanks a lot for your help!

1. I am starting out on Merge 4pl (ouch, I know), so the games are very loose passive. In a game like this what kind of stats should I be expecting to see optimally? I know there is some wiggle room in PLO, but what is too tight, and what is too loose? So far, I have played about 3k hands across 6 tables over 3 days. The first day I played only 17/10 with a 46 AFq. I thought that was too tight so the second day I tried to adjust by playing more hands in late position. That day I ended up playing 21/14 with a 54 AFq. I thought that might still be too tight so I made it a point to loosen up a little more today by limping behind with suited aces. That came out to 23/14 with a 48 AFq. Should I continue to open up more or are these numbers ok for the type of game I'm playing in?

2. My 3bet is very low right now. In the past, I would 3bet like 12%, but now my 3bet is down to only 2.5%. The games have very few people who open a wide range, which I think is the reason this is so low, but is it too low? The average person in my games is playing 45/12, and ofc arn't adjusting to anything, so does that mean it's ok to have such a low 3bet?

3. I have heard in the past that is correct to call every 3bet in PLO hu. However, I didn't assume that translated to 6max, especially OOP. My fold to 3bet is 51% right now. I was thinking that was about normal because the average player is folding to 40% of 3bets and they are all way too loose, but I could be wrong. Is somewhere in the 50% range normal, or is that high?

4. When I first started trying to play seriously, I just have up on hands like A842ss, suited to the ace. However, during my session today, I thought I would try limping behind with these hands, since there are so many limped pots. I figured if nothing else, I could get value in flush over flush situations vs some of these stations that are playing 80/10. I have had some mixed results over a small sample. I have flopped a lot of flush draws and gotten some value in a couple spots. However, I also run into the problem of limping behind and then the btn mashing the pot button and having to limp/fold. So my question is, is it always right to limp behind with suited aces? Should I only do it on the btn so as to avoid having to limp/fold, or is it ok to just limp/fold because I might be getting enough value on the times is works to be willing to lose 1BB sometimes? Or, maybe it's not correct at all because your just not flopping flush draws often enough and can run into trouble with 2 pair type hands in 5 way pots or whatever.

Anyway, I have many more questions, but I'll leave it here so I have a chance for someone to actually get through this! Thanks a lot for any help and glgl.

10 Comments

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Nic Morgan 12 years, 2 months ago
I played another session tonight for 1k hands. I played 25/16 and still seemed to have a good idea in most spots. If I run into a marginal spot I have been trying to make a lot of laydowns because I find that most people at the micros don' t make a lot of post flop raises without the nuts or close to. Things have been going well so far though through 13 hours and 4200 hands. During that time I'm running 7BB/100, so hopefully that holds up! Still wanting some help if anyone has the time!
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 2 months ago
im beginner as you so cant help you out much with good advising on all your how to and what, but i may suggest you that its too many questions at one place, maybe you rather just make 1 by 1 problem posted at a time, people will be much more likely to answer shorters.
z0fman 12 years, 2 months ago
well from ur stats i can see that there is a pretty big gap between ur vpip and pfr...so that means u call too much preflop...that is bad in plo as it is in holdem
in general at 4plo i think optimally u would want to be tighter cause ppl are so loose that u cant really make $ by making them fold...u want to have a stronger range than them so an equity edge and play hands that can make the nuts in multiway pots and get paid off...
a 3bet of 2.5% means u only 3bet aces so it is too tight...u want to include other good broadway and rundown hands so ur range is not so narrow....of course i would only 3bet for value cause in plo ppl dont fold vs 3bets nearly as often as in nl....and in general A842ss is a pretty bad hand i would fold it in most cases except if it is folded to me in the button where a steal is fine
Nic Morgan 12 years, 2 months ago
Thanks Zof. I was under the impression that it was ok to call more often in position with eh rundowns etc so there would be some gap between your VPIP and PFR, but maybe that's wrong? My 3bet is low and I agree it needs to come up some, but if it's any consolation, I don't only 3bet aces. I just don't 3bet aces all the time and do 3bet good rundowns etc. Do you think it's better to 3bet aces all the time to get my 3bet% up or add in some weaker rundowns etc?
z0fman 12 years, 2 months ago
no u should not 3bet bad aces...u would rather 3bet mostly your premium ones...aces are not such a monster in plo as in nl...and often with bad aces say like AA72r u would rather just flat pre and basically setmine....and get away from your hand if u do not hit on the flop cause chances are your opponent has...well if u can get more than 30% of your stack in preflop with aces then u should do that...and ship any flop...if you cannot its best to take the passive line...try maybe 3betting some doublesuited rundowns more in position? some good broadway hands...or hands like A765ds...
Viktor Luis Larsson 12 years, 2 months ago
I think you should have a solid thinking process about hand selection preflop. Knowing which hands plays best in which situation. Example:

A864,singlesuited to the A. This hand is a good fit for a multiway, singleraised pot. Because when you hit your nut flush or straight, there will be alot of people in the pot with worse flushes/straights that will pay you off. In comparison your headsup, when you hit you wont get paid enough times.

QJT9, singlesuited to the T. This hand plays much better headsup because you hit alot of flops and you can continue your aggression very often on many turns/rivers aswell. This hand has many more possibilities compared to A864 to win the pot. So this hand is a good candidate to 3bet with vs most players.

The key to knowing which hand plays best in which scenario is just to read up on it and understand everything that affects the character of your hand. Theres several things factoring into your thought proccess:
Postion
Number of opponents
Stack depth
Your holding

Naturally you can play much wider with position and less opponents. But you have to play tighter vs a shortstack who might be aggressive. It just takes practice and alot of study until you know this by heart.
Sean Fri 12 years, 2 months ago
Hey, Nic. I don't have much to add to Viktor and zOfman - they give very good advice. I play these games myself as I'm trying to learn plo, and I do have a few practical observations about stats, though.

Mostly: you can't trust your own stats. These games have such a wide variety of bad players that it's impossible to design one strategy to beat all of them other than nut-peddling, which isn't a lot of fun. But at a table where everyone has $1.60 (which happens a lot), in can be correct to be playing 12/10. At a table where 4 people have over $7.00 (which happens a lot), it can be correct to be looser, especially in position. Your overall stats will never take that into account.

As far as your 3bet stat, it'll always be artificially low. There's too little actual opening going on to 3bet. It often happens that it limps around to you on the button, and you raise up your double suited aces, but that's not going to count as a 3bet in your stats, because no one raised - they all just called.

As far as fold to 3bet, well - same thing. No one's going to look like they have a big 3bet stat (except some crazy maniacs who never stay around long), and very few players in this pool, as far as I can tell, are actually 3betting anything other than AAxx or sometimes KKxx. A very few will 3bet 89TJ and the like, and some maniacs will 3bet garbage. But basically, if you're oop and don't have good equity against AAxx, I wouldn't worry about my fold to 3bet getting too high or too low.

Other things I've noticed, in general: a check raise on an unpaired flop is almost always trips. No one bets the river thinly enough, if at all. I've seen boats not bet the river. Then there are the some do/some don't categories: Some players bet draws, some never do. Some players bet 2 pr on the flop, some never do.

At these stakes, I think, it's a lot less about stats and volume and more about thinking a lot and taking a lot of notes.
fitzroy 12 years, 2 months ago
I suggest reading the "PLO from scratch" Series on Donkr. It gives a great guide how to play preflop (hand selection, position etc) and what optimal stats you should have in PLO in general when first starting out.

http://en.donkr.com/forum/the-ultimate-poker-strategy-guide-533519
Nic Morgan 12 years, 2 months ago
Thanks for all the advice everyone. Things have actually been going really well so far and I'm beating the 4pl games for 9BB/100 over 6k hands in 16 hours since i made this post. Everyday I've made a journal of the things I think I did wrong or could improve on for the next day after going through PT3. Here's a hand that i played yesterday and ended up checking behind after missing my draw. But I marked it for review and wasn't sure on second look if I should have bluffed the river. I got lucky cause the other guy missed his worse wrap as well, but i think I maybe should have bluffed.

Merge - $0.04 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com

CO: $9.58
BTN: $4.94
SB: $4.83
BB: $3.88
Hero (UTG): $5.94
MP: $0.99

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has Ks 8d Js Th

Hero raises to $0.12, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.12, fold, BB calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.38, 3 players) 9c Qh Ad
BB checks, Hero bets $0.24, fold, BB calls $0.24

Turn: ($0.86, 2 players) 7h
BB checks, Hero bets $0.60, BB calls $0.60

River: ($2.06, 2 players) 5s
BB checks, Hero checks

BB shows Ts 8h 4c Jh (High Card, Ace) (Pre 32%, Flop 26%, Turn 34%)
Hero shows Ks 8d Js Th (High Card, Ace) (Pre 68%, Flop 74%, Turn 66%)
Hero wins $1.96

I think maybe his range has some naked aces in it, some missed straight draws, possibly some aces that turned the nut fd, Q9, AQ, and A9. I think if he had 99 or QQ he would have raised the flop or def the turn on a wet board and AA he prolly would have 3bet pre. He does have some 2 pairs that will call like AQ or A9 maybe, but I think he folds Q9 a lot vs a river bet and obv all his missed draws or pair+draws. So even tho I have blockers to him having other straight draws I think his range is still diluted enough with random pair+hearts or JT or KQJ type hands that it could be a profitable bluff. can anyone confirm or deny?
Sean Fri 12 years, 2 months ago
I think if you're betting .75pot again, it's probably profitable. You only need him to fold 3 out of 7 times, right? He has air at least that much, so if he folds any pair, ever, it's got to be more profitable than checking behind. Or did I get the math wrong?

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