50 plo, some interesting questions

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50 plo, some interesting questions

Alright, this is a hand I played a while ago.  I stroke out my actual hand so that this can be a range question. 

Villain is quite laggy and aggro pre and flop, but shuts down reasonably often once his flop c-bet gets called.  I have been playing fairly solid and nothing too crazy, I think I have just won 1-2 standard flips so far.


BB: €50.63

UTG: €55.57

Hero (CO): €133.50

BTN: €268.42

SB: €114.09

SB posts SB €0.25, BB posts BB €0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: €0.75) Hero has ??

fold, Hero raises to €1.50, BTN calls €1.50, fold, fold

Flop : (€3.75, 2 players) 7c 3d 4h

Hero checks, BTN bets €2.62, Hero calls €2.62

Turn : (€8.99, 2 players) Ac

Hero checks, BTN bets €6.29, Hero calls €6.29

River : (€21.57, 2 players) Jc

Hero checks, BTN bets €17.50, Hero raises to €52.00, BTN 


Q1) Would hero have bluffs in this spot? 

Q2) If you were villain, what would your river betting range look like?  Would you still value bet with a non-flush 65?

Q3) As played, what would be the weakest hand you bet/call in villain's shoes?

I will post my thoughts later on, thanks!


23 Comments

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nerevar23 11 years, 1 month ago

1 - AhKcJh7s, KcKh5h7s - interesting if the turn came the ace and not the J, then I think bluffing river becomes really sketchy case you rep basically only AKc7* (this is only in theory, 99% probably won't turn hand into bluff on this river, I would but i'm playing 02 05c atm so it would probably be bad)

2 - No, flushes and J7 with a high club blocker.

3 - Depends if you're a total nutcase or not, probably won't call cause people never bluff in this spot? Idk




trondeez 11 years, 1 month ago


1. Hard to have bluffs here. More likely you will just lead with bluffs.

2. I would only bet a 56 if I had some high club blockers with it.  

3. I probably bet / call any flush. However, I am not going to bet big, maybe 1/3 pot.

nerevar23 11 years, 1 month ago

Hmm, so you won't bet/call even with high flushes?


I think so yeah.. I mean I never see people bluffing this way, like ever. Unless they're some giant whale and c/r for value 8 high flush.

trondeez 11 years, 1 month ago

You asked me if Hero would have bluffs, not a fish. Fish have bluffs here, even AAA that thinks they are good. Yes, its not often, but enough to where I am not folding a flush, when it comes runner runner, and I decide to bet.

I am also not betting here a ton in Villains shoes. You asked me what would be the weakest hand I bet / call; that doesn't mean I will always bet it.

If I do bet, I don't bet big, so I don't get raised big.  


So I'm guessing you bluffed and Villain snapped you off with 56? And you were like "it looked soooo credible"

Welcome to the jungle.




arukidinme 11 years, 1 month ago

1/3)   I am trying to think of how I would answer all but I really think that the majority of my range I am leading with on the river.  Donk range would probably be AJ+ for value and call raises with something like Qcc+ (maybe should be lighter not sure).

2) Villain I think should be value betting AJ+ mainly because it is very hard for hero to have BDF.  Also not a lot of set in hero's range (due to board texture and having the TTP gives blockers to most likely sets)  I am guessing that this is nearly all of villains turn bet range, but how often can hero have a hand to raise him with?

midori 11 years, 1 month ago

Wait, how can we value bet AJ on the river unless I am missing something?  Villain probably won't have enough backdoor flushes in his range, but he could easily have flopped a straight.  Or do you think his range is bluff heavy/thin value heavy enough that we can vbet AJ?

arukidinme 11 years, 1 month ago

Yeah missed that it was a locked down flop when I made the first comment.  Re visited my thoughts on the ranges with the comments below.

lofigr 11 years, 1 month ago

Q0) If this was just ordinary hand where you had flush, and villain either called/reshoved w/ worse/better flush or w/ bare 56, I think you wouldnt recall this hand (but maybe you would). I also think that it wouldn't greatly amazed you that he really "dared to call you" w/ 56 not having clubs where you bluffed w/ non flush (but maybe it would).

Q1) Ofc he would. Omaha is game of big bluffs when you feel it's right spot for it, where its hard for your opponent to have best hand, either cause you have blockers or due to nature of our opponent, history and spotted patterns of behaviour in similar spots. Probabilities also play part of our judgement whether to bluff or not.

KcK55:!cc was really first hand that came on my mind (you had blockers, later u HAD blocker(s))

note) even leading set as bluff here OTR isn't wise in my opinion, as you try to FOLD 56 which you probably dont accomplish by leading, only w/ c/r having blocker such as naked K c.

Q2) (any) flush, [non-flush 56 ], {sets w/ hi club as blocker: JJ w/ lets say Qc, sets w/ str8 blockers: for instance  7766.} I think I would check back 56!cc often, not sure that it would always be the case vs all kind of opponents...

Brackets would contain VB ranges depending on lot of factors, but in that order I would VB.

[] = sometimes; {} = rarely vs targeted/special opponents

Q3) Hmmmm. Depends on my judgement :

q31) are you capable for BIG bluff : c/r -ing me with set representing High Flush

q32) I would ask myself: "Why didn't he just lead the river w/ flush?". This surely polarizes your holdings from pure bluff to nuts (or 2nd nuts WCS).

answer: 56Kc:!cc (maybe 56Qc:!cc)

Guess) I guess you had KcK55:!cc and he had JJ68:!cc


midori 11 years, 1 month ago

Yeah I mostly agree with your analysis.  I just wasn't sure if he would vbet river with 65, but thought he would.  If he wouldn't, then I should probably just donk with my flush (I had the nuts with KcK) sometime.  Even in this case though, I probably wouldn't have enough bluffs in my range, if that is relevant at all.

nerevar23 11 years, 1 month ago

2) Villain I think should be value betting AJ+ mainly because it is very hard for hero to have BDF

 

No it isn't.


arukidinme 11 years, 1 month ago

I was meaning more with the line then combinations, yes we could get there on the river with a flush but would/should we check?  Also if we call the turn with all our KK:Kc hands we are going to have a large amount of bluffs on the river.  

I just convert the numbers $1 so that it's in bbs so this is near the hand playing out in terms of BBs.  The turn range for hero is:

KK:Kc,AA,56,77,A:58+:cc,3:58+:cc,4:58+:cc,7:58+:cc



If we fold all the KK:Kc hands than our river x/r range will be much more balanced (I have turned flopped sets into bluffs here).




Also I am making the assumption that villain is betting the turn for value, so very little spew given the reads.  I having him semi bluffing with sets and GS+FD on the turn. 

33+,58+:cc, I excluded A+:cc, think it would be a checking range.  So villain will make a hand full of flushes that he will bet, and a bunch of hands that he might be happy to check behind.



nerevar23 11 years, 1 month ago

I don't know if we would/should check flushes on river but I sure do it some.

 

Midori, did you change turn card with the ace or was I totally blind yesterday?

lofigr 11 years, 1 month ago

I am pretty sure yesterday Jc was turn! Otherwise:

(A) I would not have put JJ68:!cc as villain's potential hand

(B) nerevar would not have put:"interesting if the turn came the ace and not the J"

Hmmmmm.......

midori 11 years, 1 month ago

Thanks for your opinions, guys.  It helped me a lot!

To those who were implying that I might have been bluffing here and got snap called, I actually wasn't.  I happened to have KK that backdoored the nut flush, and villain bet/called with Qhigh flush + 33 (flopped set).  In game I thought well, he's at the top of his range so he should bet/call anyways, but then I realised this is a spot where people just don't bluff nearly often in my shoes.

nerevar23 11 years, 1 month ago

Strange, I thought the turn was the Jc. Well since it's the ace, then no more KK that can bluff since we don't call turn with them. Probably calling the c/r is bad with any flush cause the only hand that is turned into a bluff is exactly A7Kc*. That + the fact that people almost never bluff here. So I was correct with my hunch.

lofigr 11 years, 1 month ago

I've already commented regarding Ac vs Jc on turn, but I would not put KK:!cc for hero's hand neither if Ac was turn...

nerevar23 11 years, 1 month ago

Well the fact that I said it would be interesting if A was J isn't relevant, maybe we are both wrong or maybe Midori is in fact bluffing us for reasons unkown to man :-o

midori 11 years ago

Guys, I really didn't edit my post! :(  I bluff a lot at the poker tables, but not in real life ;)

I'd blame it on the HH text I uploaded, or the RIO HH converter..


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