3Bet POT! How to continue postflop?
Posted by Paul Toda
Posted by
Paul Toda
posted in
Low Stakes
3Bet POT! How to continue postflop?
Blinds: $0.50/$1.00 (6 Players)
UTG: $96.44
MP: $25.77
CO: $184.04
BN: $119.83
SB: $101.68
BB: $100.00 (Hero)
MP: $25.77
CO: $184.04
BN: $119.83
SB: $101.68
BB: $100.00 (Hero)
Button Opens 65% Folds 30% . What to do next? :D
Preflop
($1.50)
Hero is BB with
K
9
J
8
, , , ,
Flop
($19.50)
8
T
6
, ,
Turn
($41.50)
8
T
6
2
,
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well, we're 61\39 ahead vs 60%!AA (not setting fold vs 3b range)
and generally it hits his range better that ours, if he understands it, I'd expect BN to bet gutshots,midpairs, 9x,7x hands (obv depends on his tendencies),
so x/r seems good w\OESD and blocker on rainbow bord in 100bbs, vs tight betting range might x/call.
that's my understanding of this spot.
EDIT:
put same ranges in PJ, gave him ~7% folds vs 3b (worst Ax, some rainbow hands), still 61\39 OTF,
I'd assume its ok strategy for him to bet #A, B and C, and fold most combos of #C to a raise while GII with #A and #B
with this rought assumption we should have 50%+ of b\fold from villain and x/r is +EV for us then.
and generally, if BN has high bluffing freq. then x/call with all of our equity (+bdfds) should be also good, right?
I really appreciate the feedback man! Btn stabs in this situation (Bet vs missed CB in 3Bet POT) 42% on the Flop and 51% on the Turn (over a large sample) so i guess he has a lot of air in this situation.
At the time my plan was to c/r any turn i improve to a FD, and C/call when i hit the straight, trips, 2pairs +fd.
I just started using PJ so is very hard for me to figure out this situation.
The first and most critical detail is determining your flop cbet/check strategy here. You won't be sacrificing much in EV by checking your range here, but whether or not you have a cbet range will significantly alter IP's stabbing range in theory. Assuming you are checking range, IP should have a low stab frequency at equilibrium, against which, this hand will probably perform poorly by x/shoving. Our nut component also incentivizes x/c as we should catch a number of bluffs/value bets when we do improve. Against an opponent who significantly overstabs OTF, x/shoving seems more viable.
kobepaul1 Ty to post this hand!
The way you played that hand is the worst way to play IMO. I'm sorry.
But, when you choose to 3bet KJs98s OOP you need to know how to play a 3betP OOP with a medium hand and is very clear that you don't know. But it's okay, RIO is a forum where people try to help each other. That is what I want to do.
First thing, you need to understand how important is to know your range. You will have, in a lot of situations, three types of range, strong/medium/weak. It's not a big problem play your strong range very face up because youwill be earning most part of the time. The same way, is not a big problem play your weak range face up because you will be losing almost always.
BUT the problem is when you play your medium range face up, because you will be kicked out of the hand or value will be extracted from you, because villain know that you have a medium hand.
Look at this image of a great instructor of mine:
And try to guess what you did in that hand? Yes, you played your medium hand showing that you have a medium range. Is the worst option!
So OTF you have three options:
1) Check/raise against a loose opponent.
2) Bet and gii against a loose opponent
3) Bet/fold against a tight opponent
This analysis is completely the wrong way to look at a hand. The whole notion of not playing a medium strength hand by x/c to "avoid" representing a medium strength hand is completely absurd. What's the best way to disguise a medium strength hand? Add some nutted hands to your x/c range to go along with it. Yes, if you x/c and your opponent "puts you on a hand" sometimes you will have that hand and your decisions will be close to neutral EV. Other times, he'll run into the nuts. It's also just as problematic to play strong hands in a face up way. That's why ranges exist and every hand doesn't take a distinct path.
Thanks to answer me, restacks. First, I'm sorry if I'm talking bullshit. I'll try to explain myself better.
"The whole notion of not playing a medium strength hand by x/c to "avoid" representing a medium strength hand is completely absurd "
I think the biggest problem is not to have a balance check call range otf, so you will show to the villain "look, i have a hand that isn't strong enough to go to showdown, plz check!" And if you put KhJh9d8d in your check call range you will can balance, the problem is if you put KhJh9c8c (with just one backdoord flush), So in this other situation I do not think the hero can balance.
But I want to hero understand this, because is so important IMO.
btw, I agree:
"It's also just as problematic to play strong hands in a face up way"
But play medium hands in face up way is worse than strong hands. Because in the strong cenario, you won't be kicked like the second cenario.
I see two options - c/c, c/c twice or c/r otf.
cc is the worst option (between xc or xr)
In order to balance your range you need to have some check/calling hands here and this one is a good pick. Otherwise you just become too exploitable.
For my understanding: How different / how similar do you think our hand is to a similar hand that has a T instead of an 8 here? Are they both good picks to check/call or would you consider one to be significantly better as a hand that gets it in OTF?
Okay I hate to be the one to point out the obvious but the flop is just a very clear bet. Clearly, our hand is strong enough to call a bet, therefor why not invest this call as a bet and then have a chance of winning the pot immediately?
You've considered only one branch of the game tree. Bet+villain folds is good. Bet + villain calls is not so good as we've significantly narrowed his range and reduced our equity in a bigger pot. Bet+villain raises is terrible and we punt off equity and a bet when we b/f. Checking through is good and we can valubet/bluff the turn vs a weaker range. check+ call a bet from villain isn't great, but we ensure only one bet goes in the pot and we retain our equity. x/c and betting and getting called are likely similar in value though not totally symmetric. Given that the aforementioned actions are close in value, the real EV disparity comes from choosing between the EV of checking and hoping the flop checks through and the EV of b/f + the EV of betting and getting a fold. Since IP's stabbing frequency should be low in theory, the flop checks through often which adds value to checking. Given that IP can always peel wider than OOP, the fold frequency vs a bet decreases meaning that branch is not very profitable for us. Betting and folding to a raise is obviously not profitable.
cc otf is pretty standard play given our exact hand IMO. If we didn't have no backdoor fd, b/f maybe better than c/c (depending on villians).
I would not c/r readless, since we get it in pretty bad if he also have some piece.
But a better way to analyze this hand is to construct your c/c c/r betting ranges otf with your 3betting range, not just with your hand.
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