3Bet POT! C/Call or C/Raise Flop?
Posted by Paul Toda
Posted by
Paul Toda
posted in
Mid Stakes
3Bet POT! C/Call or C/Raise Flop?
Blinds: $1.00/$2.00 (4 Players)
BN: $390.54
SB: $280.46
BB: $264.25
CO: $200.00 (Hero)
SB: $280.46
BB: $264.25
CO: $200.00 (Hero)
BN is a regular, 3Bets vs CO 10%
Preflop
($3.00)
Hero is CO with
7
9
J
T
, , ,
Flop
($51.00)
8
2
7
,
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This is nearly a 100% x/shove in theory. It would also be hard for me to construct exploitive justifications for a slow play here.
donk the flop
Donking any hands will add very little to the CO's expectation. This flop is solidly favorable to the 3Ber.
I would just check/call here.
Seems like you have a hand that's happy with playing for stacks at this SPR and would also be happy to gain fold equity. Also when your hand improves (not including non straightening spades) the board will often get scary enough to lose your opponents action.
I would raise pot. Or to whatever you would normally raise to with a big hand that you want to get the money in with.
As a sidenote, OOP with a check call, you become quite vulnerable to heart bluffs.
x\shoving should be too much better, because here a lot of runnouts where villain can you bluff out your equity , and this is very bad because you will have it a lot.
In simple way your hand is strong on flop, but very often will not be like that on many turns.
I think you dont want to narrow his range too much. At first sight this hand looks super nice but if the money goes in against top part of his range you are always behind big time. Absolutely every reasonable 3-betting hand with hearts is big favourite against you.
You think that x/call will have a higher EV then? Both options make sense, how do we figure out which option makes more $?
I do think that check/calling is higher EV in this case. Obviously it depends who you play against and what are his stats. If he c-bets too much then obviously raising is good option as well but in theory BTN shouldnt c-bet this flop too often unless he has good hand or absolute air.
When the SPR is low you can't expect to be up against the top of his range every time the money goes in. You also can't assume no fold equity against his half pot betting range.
Even against a tight range that's getting it in against you, you'll have correct odds to get the money in. 51 in pot, bet of 26, call of 26, makes the pot 103 with 150 left in your stack. If all the money were to go in on the flop (which it's pot limit so you can only raise to about 128 which would leave about $48 left to bet, but the pot sized bet is stack committing for both players) you would be putting in an additional $150 to win $250.
And against a player that's only putting the money in with those strong parts of his range, you'll have more fold equity, assuming he isn't only half-pot-cbetting with the top of his range.
These low, SPR 3 bet pots are always pretty interesting where we have pair+draw, combo draws or wraps without the flush draw. I've done a lot of work in these spots and I believe the immediate EV of C/C is actually often close to the EV of C/Shove. Of course, it will depend on cbet stats and/or what type of villain is in position and how his B/C and B/F ranges are constructed. The problem with C/C however is that around 40% of the deck on the turn leaves us in a tough situation where we lack enough raw equity at that point to call it off, even with such a low SPR at that point. There's actually often enough equity on heart turns that complete the straight for us that we are able to commit if our opponent is capable of balancing his turn bets. From what I have seen in these types of pots, players are getting it in a little lighter than we would think at first and they actually are doing some B/F to where we have some FE. Without any cbet stats or specific reads, I like C/Shove to take advantage of any FE that exists and to make the combo easier to play when the EV of both plays is often close. A big part of playing tough from OOP is sometimes taking some non nuttish/slam dunk get it in combos that lack some playability on future streets and taking the aggressive line vs our opponent in position. I think you can argue C/C, but I prefer C/R.
I have a feeling that one person who could argue for check/calling is Mr. Phil Galfond himself. I have pretty much watched all of his videos and I must admit I think I´m yet to see him just blindly check/shove in situations similar to this one. I have seen him c/c, checking back, even c/f but very rarely c/r wraps without any flush blockers. If somebody wants to show that he has done it please be so kind to do so and post a screenshot with his explanations. I would absolutely like to hear what Phil would do in a spot like that.
It's for sure close and it really depends on how wide you think the villain or a player on average in that pool stacks off and how often they are cbetting that spot in general. I see players doing more B/F than they should be, so there should be more FE against a more merged range, which could make C/R better than C/C. It's absolutely possible on Stars or in other pools that players are playing better in that spot in position and that could mean that maybe we need to balance more ourselves, which could result in this combo finding its way into our C/C range. Makes it kinda a cool spot due to all the factors and opinions involved!
Phil is rarely in spots this low SPR. It's a completely different spot deep, against players that high stakes.
Phil may need some help with spots like this too :)
I can add that calling can be better when you are IP or with SPR ~4.5+.
I cannot agree with Nick Johnson that this spot is close for x\c or x\r, for my opinion we should stackoff here vs 97% villains.
If we x\c and on half of deck he will push out our pair+wrap? If turn comes brick 3 or king. We just fold so strong hand?
But what will happened if we hit our 2 pair or straight? we almost never get paid enough even if we create donk betting range on turn.
as for x\r: we have FE, in pot 75$ and we are risking 175$ only, we have good EQ and we can realize to the maximum OOP.
In easy way, I see a lot of arguments for x\r, but still dont any reasons why x\c can give me bigger advantage vs opponent or higher EV
No, I agree with you that C/R is better. I think the original question after a few of the responses was what netted more EV and that's more what I meant with that it is often actually pretty close. As you stated though, future streets and run outs just don't benefit us well enough and we can lose/not realize EV in those spots, so even though it's close on the flop with how much immediate EV is netted by each play, I think we do better overall with a C/R considering future playabililty. There could be some spots with specific villains or factors where C/C is more of a consideration, but it seems pretty standard to get it in now.
Well even a monkey with no PLO skills whatsoever would probably go for a C/R every single time.
In reality all we got is a decent FE against players who c-bet way too much, against everything else we are either dominated and way behind or pretty much flipping.
In the end of the day its really close spot and while I would certainly C/R fairly often I would also just C/C a bunch.
c/r +1 people bet merged here.
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