Reads? Think im checking flop readless

Check flop.  Action on the flop depends on stats or reads.  I'm not folding since all of my outs are clean and I have a bdfd.  But whether to jam or call and try to improve on the turn requires some info.

surprised both of you think this is an auto check with no reads. I would always bet here for value/protection and go with it readless with 100bb effective. 

I'd bet/fold here...you are very likely behind in a multiway spot...you are basically never ahead and most of the time you are behind by some margin. Stacking off here is spewy.

As for betting, I still like the cbet. You aren't going to get raised that often because of few 2 pair combos. Also, given you have the 87 you are blocking some of the potential wraps already. Another thing is that your hand is somewhat disguised if you hit, since you will not have that many 87 combos when you open from mp (unless you play laggy) so you may get enough value/induce bluffs when you hit.

Gimme stats on the opponents and we can check how often we get raised, maybe im over estimating the times we do get raised but in 100bb games ppl do seem to like to ram n jam and if were bet folding this were bet folding everything except wraps and sets and the for our range very rare top2

This hand was played on bovada so readless at the moment of the hand. I think villian had played 5 hands. These spots are fairly common and more of a GTO issue when playing these spots on anonymous sites.

Bet folding seems like and overplay and missing a lot of equity. An aggro opponent would certainly check raise 789x or J78x which we are doing very well against.

And at the same time checking the flop and winning 4ways on the turn on anything but a 2, 4, 9 or Q seems questionable. Its possible to bet 5, 6, and J turn but 4 ways its also fairly likely if the hand gets action it will be beat.

Good rule of thumb is that "if you have a decent hand with nut outs but don't want to get c/raised, check behind". I heard this from my friend when reviewing a different hand, but this hand is perfect example imo.

you definitely don't want to get c/raised and we have 10 clean nut outs (Q 9 4) and spade turn is decent as well. b/f waste our equity and b/c is a bit spewy readless. so I am happy to check behind.

Lots of people talked about why we should check back this hand and realise some equity or avoid getting check raised, so I'll give you a slightly different perspective on the hand.

When you bet the flop and get 3 folds (not super likely, but let's assume so), what hands do you think they have folded?  Do any better hands fold?  Well, if they did, it's mostly gonna be dry overpairs - but then again, they might just call one bet.  Maybe 65 with nothing else - but most 65 combos have some sort of draws, and won't fold.  J5 and better, good luck folding them out. 

Then, is our hand strong enough to value bet against 3 other players?  Probably not.  As a rule of thumb, our value betting range in a 3+ way pot should be fairly strong (and narrow), because we wouldn't be bluffing in these spots very often, barring some blocker bluffs.  In a 4-way pot, we generally don't want to have a bet/folding range, unless we have good reasons to do so.  Hands that are too strong, we bet/jam.  Hands that are too weak, we check and give up.  Hands that fall in between, we check and decide, meaning we would mostly check/fold or check/call.  At any rate, QQ87 is a decent and nutty hand but not strong enough to bet/jam, and probably not strong enough to bet and barrel through, either.  If we don't improve on turn and river, barreling becomes very dicey.

Now, you might argue for betting for protection.  However, we don't have THAT much to protect against.  By definition, a protection bet is made when we bet to fold out worse hands that have good equity against us.  In this spot though, the hands that fold to our c-bet have rather little equity, and even if they improve to 2 pairs or better, most of them won't be able to value bet themselves, so it's not a big deal.  There are hands like AJT5 that have okay equity against us, but those hands are probably not folding anyway, so no point in protecting against them.  

All in all, I don't think betting is all that terrible, but it does us little good.  If we somehow get 3 folds, it's not like we folded out super equity hands.  If we get one or more call(s), it's gonna be hard to play turn/river unless we improve.  If we get raised, it's a crappy spot and we might have to fold, throwing a lot of equity and nuttiness down the drain.

That said, checking seems a superior choice, but it's important to keep in mind that "checking back because we have a nutty hand" is only a tip of an iceberg.  In general, when the word "protection" comes to your mind, think of what hands you want to be protecting against (i.e. what hands you want to fold out), and see how much equity they have.  If the answer is not much, you don't have to go crazy about protecting, especially in a MW spot like this.

Hope it helped,

- midori

I'm approaching this bet as a value bet as I'm considering stacking off in this spot. I guess the problem is that without reads or for instance jamming over a lead from an aggressive player its a bit spewey to be getting this in in a single raised pot. 

So when is it appropriate to bet this hand for value and not solely for protection. If JXXX is going to call a bet thats a clear vbet. Check back and bet 2 turns? What if this hand is 3 ways and we are on the button? always checking back? assume the opponents are good regulars.