2/4 hand 3bet pot line check

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2/4 hand 3bet pot line check

HJ: $400
CO: $400
BN: $618
SB: $518.40 (Hero)
BB: $200
Preflop ($6.00) (5 Players)
Hero was dealt 8 7 J T
HJ folds, CO raises to $812, BN raises to $3042, Hero calls $40, BB folds, CO calls $30
Flop ($3930.00) 9 Q 4 (3 Players)
Hero checks, CO checks, BN checks
Turn ($3930.00) 9 Q 4 Q (3 Players)
Hero bets $76, CO folds, BN calls $76
River ($4082.00) 9 Q 4 Q J (2 Players)
Hero checks, BN bets $172, Hero folds
Final Pot
BN wins $279.20
Co and btn are TAG regulars. I have a TAG image on the table as well.

On the flop is leading or c/c better?

On the turn when I am the only one that can credibly show up with a boat here, should I be sizing my bets on the larger side or smaller and why?

River villain is repping only QJxx. Is there anything else i can do on the river but c/f?

11 Comments

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pacmang 12 years, 3 months ago
First of all it seems like the HH is messed up. The sizing is all wrong.

I'm not that big of a fan for betting flop as the board isn't that scary and your hand is just ok.

I agree that amongst the 3 you are the most probable to show up with a boat so I like a turn bet as semi bluff. When he calls I think we can put him on a medium flush or a Q. I believe he bets big flush draws and Q with straight draws on flop like QTJ.

This makes me feel like there isn't that many combos of boats on his part by the river but there is more draws or flushes (u also block none). Therefore on the river I feel like we lose often when we check. And since we block a J and can rep a boat credibly I feel like turning the hand into bluff on the river is more profitable than checking. (maybe i'm spewtard? lol)

I also feel like when you check you can't call. I believe his range is the rare QJ, JJ, or the 2 combos of straight flush. I'm eager to hear what others have to say
Phil Galfond 12 years, 3 months ago
We're working on the HHs as quickly as possible. Anyone who posts a HH that converts incorrectly, please email the raw HH to support@runitonce.com with a link to the post. Hopefully we cover every site and game type perfectly soon. It does take a while for our programmers though, since there are so many different types.

Phil Galfond 12 years, 3 months ago
Good post pac.

I agree that we are most probable to have a boat. People RARELY check back top two or top set in a 3way 3bet pot on a board this draw heavy. I'm not sure I've ever seen it, actually.

Also, given that we don't have an Ace in our hand, and we block some rundowns, AND the CO didn't 4bet, it becomes a little more likely than usual that button has AAxx. Knowing his preflop 3bet stats would be helpful.

Since he checked the flop, I don't expect him to have AAxxhh often at all, which means his turn range (before action gets to him) should be very weak.

Other than his preflop play, reads on his toughness here are very important. Will he always float or raise with Ah blocker? Will he bluff river with AAQ2?

I'm actually thinking that your decision on the river should be between calling and folding, not raising. Almost all of his high flush hands should be betting this flop, as they almost always have more than just a big flush draw if he 3bets at all reasonably.

I think I wanna hero call :)
Sam Lang 12 years, 3 months ago
I think we have to c/f river, or bomb it pretty big depending on villains tendencies in this spot.

As for turn play, I actually think a viable option would be to c/r and bet rivers if called. if he has q*** we have some equity and can probably make him fold by the river, and as his range is capped, even with say khi flush it is hard to call a c/r and river bet. I would probably bet river if turn goes chk chk if we don't improve. His range is so weak on the turn that the hands he would fold to a bet, he would fold to a c/r where we get an extra bet, and we can make him fold these hands on the river anyway if he chks. I don't think we can bet this turn 100% of the time, if we are betting this hand we are pretty much betting a lot of our range, so yeah I think a turn c/r would be a good option, as if we are betting this turn a lot, he's gonna start calling wider and we end up not knowing what to do on rivers like now.
Phil Galfond 12 years, 3 months ago
Good post, Sam.

I agree that c/r turn and bet river is a very good, strong line. I would only do it against a bet from the button though, as the CO has way too many legitimate hands in his range, and we have no blockers whatsoever.
Jason Ring 12 years, 3 months ago
Is folding pre-flop a consideration?
Phil Galfond 12 years, 3 months ago
Thank you, Jason. I forgot to mention this in my first response.

I think that folding preflop is correct. I think we lose money on this call, unless our opponents are pretty bad. In position, I think it's a close fold. OOP, very clear muck in my opinion.

We risk getting 4bet, first of all. But more importantly, we are seeing a flop with a hand with <33% preflop equity and not much playability or deception. Our draws and 2pr hands we flop will often be dominated, and it's nearly impossible for us to get all-in on the flop with huge equity.
Jonathan Davis 12 years, 3 months ago
I definitely agree that pre is a fold that most players don't make. Cold calling 3 bets in general for PLO is not +EV, given we are stuck in the middle both preflop and post.

Turn is interesting and I think there are plenty of options. I don't like c/ring unless villains are going to bet here a lot with air, I feel most villains will check the majority of their range. As said we are most likely to have a boat in our range and we definitely should hit this flop very hard given our cold call of the 3 bet preflop. I most likely c/f river unless villain views your turn range very weak and wide which makes me lean towards call instead of raise given there should not be many if any better hands turned into a bluff.
homer5554 12 years, 3 months ago
preflop: definitely fold, our hand is not strong enough to cold call a 3bet here (phil explained it very well why this the case above)
flop: think a check is fine here given we don't even have a big nut str. draw on a flushdraw board
turn: either betting out or c/r a BTNs bet is here a good option, our cold calling 3betting range should hit that flop very hard so our turn bet or c/r looks very strong (even if these guys knows we can bluff here good)
river: when BTN calls the turn I just nearly see only flushes in his range and after his river bet I can only imagine that he has a K high flush which wants value from lower flushes. To be honest I don*t see much other combinations who can value bet here (beside straight flush combination), maybe he could have AQJ8 which check behind turn and take that line (that would also make sense)

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