1-2-5 live game
Posted by Joe Monge
Posted by Joe Monge posted in Mid Stakes
1-2-5 live game
Table is 9 handed:
Villain ($1800) is extremely aggressive and been raising 4x basically every pot. Been playing at the table for ~3 hours and I have seen him 4 bet hands as marginal as TT72 single suited. I am sitting on 1400$ and waiting for the perfect time to pick him off.
On the previous swing around the table I was in the SB w/ KK77ds he was in UTG+1 and I 3 bet his 20 to 80. Flop came 5d7d8c (I had hearts and spades) I checked to him and he led pot. I made a pretty weak fold here and showed the 7's, with his aggression I figured I was doing pretty bad against a GII range, and a lot of turns I am completely lost.
Hand in question I am SB again w/ AcAhQdTc
Villain raises to 20 from UTG +1, two callers and I raise to 105. Villain calls and 2 folds.
Flop: (AdKc7c)
Hero (checks)
Villain (checks)
Obviously I flop the world here, looking back I think this check is a pretty big mistake on my part, as any club draw will probably come along looking to crack the A's, also think a bet is more standard from an AAxx hand which would in turn give villain a lot of good "perceived" bluff cards on the turn, that scare a standard AAxx hand. However, I do have a pretty wide 3 bet range pre, and really not sure if I should put the very top into a donk range.
Turn: ( Jh)
Hero?
Thanks for any help
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KK77 hand seems pretty terrible. Sorry to be harsh, but you 3bet and get a great flop for your hand-bad flop for your perceived range, get him to stab which he's doing w/ most of his range vs a check here, and then fold. Seems like a clear flop x/ca or x/r(not sure what stacks were) to induce from his air which undoubtedly bets flop and potentially get him to stack off w/ worse.
On the hand in question, pretty clear flop bet I think. Yeah, you block a lot of your opp's continuing range, but I'm not sure that you get many stabs from air on a texture like this that favors your range over theirs.
You can go something like 60% pt 60% pt, jam river. I feel like there are just very few instances where checking this hand makes sense, at least in most live games where generally people's calling range are wider than their betting ranges and aggression levels are low. The value your foregoing by checking to induce on a texture that favors your range is just not worth the amount of value your losing when he does connect with this flop and you have him putting in a lot of BB's drawing near stone dead(perhaps when he has QJT or a med FD or 2pr)
Thx for the response.
Agreed that the KK77 is really weak, (I am fish in these games, but trying to improve in general). Are stab's at this sort of pot usually pot sized? in this hand i had ~1200$ he was 1800$ so a c/r puts me in terrible shape against a 4b shove, and if he calls I am really lost on a lot of turns. (maybe this is why I should stand up when so deep :))
On the 2nd hand: What kind of hand do you put into a checking range if we are leading w/ such a strong hand? Or do you basically always donk after the pre action?
I was thinking KQJT, 89QJ, type hands, but thought it would be good to balance w/ big hands that dont really have bad turn cards. Just over thinking I am sure.
"Agreed that the KK77 is really weak, (I am fish in these games, but
trying to improve in general). Are stab's at this sort of pot usually
pot sized? in this hand i had ~1200$ he was 1800$ so a c/r puts me in
terrible shape against a 4b shove, and if he calls I am really lost on a
lot of turns. (maybe this is why I should stand up when so deep :))"
Your point is good that vs a pot sized bet we can discount bluffs,
totally agree w/ that assumption. Still, do you think we discount hands like
JT9*,2pr's, or flushdraw+ oe? By folding a hand like this, your
effectively saying "This guy is never bluffing for pot when I check, is
never value betting worse or enough worse, and is never paying me off when I fill up, so
I should fold everything except 96." If you think that's
accurate, then your play is fine. Based on description, it sounds a bit ambitious.
Let's break down villain's range here, as I'm not sure if x/r or x/ca are best.
So, if we discount his bluffs and say he's betting only for value or with draws that have good equity, his range will be something like:
2PR>, NFD+(GD, PR), FD+(OE), JT9* = 2pair or better, nut flushdraw+backup, flushdraw+open ender or better, and top wrap.
Against that range we have 48.5% on the flop.
Let's narrow it a bit.
SET>, 2PR+(OE>, FD, NGD), NFD+(GD>, PR>), FD+(OE>)= set or straight, 2pair+ open ender or wrap, flushdraw, nut gut shot, nut flushdraw+ gutshot or better, pair or better, flushdraw+ open ender or better.
Vs that range, we have 44.5%
Even giving him the tightest range of: SET>, 2PR+(OE>, FD), NFD+(OE>) our hand still has 39% vs his range. If you think he's somewhere in this ball park, and you don't expect to make money when you improve, your getting closer to playing correctly, I would guess.
Overall it looks like continuing with a call is best since we don't push an equity advantage vs any of these ranges and its likely we have any fold equity.
I took the middle range : SET>, 2PR+(OE>, FD, NGD), NFD+(GD>, PR>), FD+(OE>) and checked out our equity on various turns. If we expect him to pot 100% of turns with this range, we should x/f non-board pair diamonds and continue on all others.
"On the 2nd hand: What kind of hand do you put into a checking range
if we are leading w/ such a strong hand? Or do you basically always donk
after the pre action?
I was thinking KQJT, 89QJ, type hands, but
thought it would be good to balance w/ big hands that dont really have
bad turn cards. Just over thinking I am sure."
I mean, I think in theory land, checking AAQT nut clubs is probably correct. We need to protect our checks here and this hand is just so invulnerable+blocks so much of villain's continuing range, that it's probably correct. However, in the real world where people don't play GTO, I think we can deviate from an optimal strategy and just bet med-small on the flop and expect to make more money overall in your average live plo game.
Yeah, other hands we'd want to check would be stuff that has decent equity but can't get stacks in. KQJT or AJT* type stuff seem fine to check sometimes.
Cool, thanks a lot for the response. Never really done much detailed range breakdown so it helps a lot to see the numbers.
Probably too ambitious to narrow the range so much, a peel def. looks > fold on further examination.
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