4BB deep poker is fun (215 HORSE FTOPS, 10 left)
Posted by Jarvis Blocker
Posted by
Jarvis Blocker
posted in
Limit Hold 'Em
4BB deep poker is fun (215 HORSE FTOPS, 10 left)
Sorry if this is a very easy spot, FLHE is by far my worst game despite being an avid 8-gamer/HORSEster and I generally just try to avoid blowing up majorly minimizing my losses during the FLHE orbits. So anyway this is the FTP 215 HORSE FTOPS a few days back, I play on FTP like 3 times a year so I'd be an unknown, Villain is a random scandi unknown to me. Haven't played any games with him before except for the last 18 hands of FLHE in this tournament. During this time he's opened 2 times and won the blinds (CO and SB), and once flatted SB with about 5 big bets vs LAG BTN and checkfolded 3way on Qxx board. I have opened twice during the same time frame and won both pots pre. So neither of us has played a hand postflop really and thus 0 reads both ways.
We are ITM, 10 ppl left, 9-10 both get $520 and 8th $690, was 8-9k first so no point trying to get payjumps. I'm 8/10 before the hand, almost tied between 8th and 10th, and everyone else has at least double my stack so again I think we need to try to double up instead of nitting in general.
1200/2500 (no antes obv), before the hand V has 17k and I have 18500 (16k+ BB). BTN is very LAG with a big stack, I'm readless on SB but he's a bigstacked Russian also, so I assume he's opening tightish here. Please comment all 3 decisions.
Villain opens CO (5k), BTN and SB folds, I have Jh9d in BB and flat.
Ac9c2d (11250)
Check, he bets 2500, I call?
Turn 7c, we have exactly 10k behind.
Check, he bets 5000, I?
Since he's a total random with no reads this is what I was thinking:
Basically do we want to have a C/R range on this flop? As I said I'm terrible at this game but my thinking was that we don't, because since we have exactly 3 streets of bets left post (12500 on the flop) we don't need to cr flop when we flop huge to get in, and while at first glance it would seem we need to protect vs overs, the only bad cards are KQT and if he hits one of those, wouldn't he check back the turn often to let us see the river? And if checks a KQT ott and river bricks we could just checkfold because it's a pretty unlikely bluff line unless two of the overcards roll? If I cr flop I get value from very few worse hands and no better hand ever folds and it's hard for me to come up with a c/r range. So basically plan was to c-call, checkshove most turns with range, trying to exploit what I assume is a spot people overbluff a bit on the turn in a donkament with these stacks, because it's such a crucial spot for both of us as we both really need to win the pot quite bad and my range looks pretty weak. So if he has Ax+ idk how often I'm getting out of the hand anyway, but this way we'd get to charge bluffbarrels and make good decisions on bad turn cards?
Like I said I'm horrible at this game so idk if that made any sense, but I'd love for someone to correct my thinking here (more interested in thought process than the correct action really). Thanks!
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I play a fair bit of LHE - not that many tournaments although I do play some 8game/HORSE...so, here goes fwiw.
Your thought processes seem a little jumbled to be honest. If you are not so worried about busting 10th or 8th (and I agree 100%); then call the raise from the CO; and check-raise the flop or fold if you think he has an Ace - plug some ranges in and it's a check-raise for me as I think he has other things in his range as well (you are 46% against a top 20% range for example); especially as he flatted a speculative hand from SB vs loose button open which is pretty bad imo (5BB deep anyway). If you are worried about playing LHE oop then just fold and move on if you think he is tighter than that pre-flop...
Re LHE and x/r raise; the answer to your question is 1000000% yes. Most half decent LHE players flat their entire range in the BB; thus allowing us to have a lovely, balanced x/r range. Against CO/BTN open this should be second pair or better plus some draws (those with no s/d value for instance). It is slightly different with the A on board as it hits a lot of his range - hence I think you should x/r or fold. (Although if you were planning to fold a pair on the flop, fold pre-flop and save the 1/2 bet)
With that kind of x/r range you get value from a lot or worse hands as well...if you can x/r flush draws and gutters then KQ is going to stick around or medium pocket pairs will stick around and so on...also; him folding is not a disaster at the moment either (villain should be c-betting in that spot should be around 97%). You are right in that you don't have to x/r with huge hands to get value - although being oop you are risking losing tons of bets if turn goes x/x, which is criminal in LHE - but what about when you flop marginal/strong hands like this one. You need to have big hands in your range or people won't even consider folding as the price they are getting is too great.
You are thinking like a NLHE player - you cannot 'protect' your hand in the same way as the odds are too good; you can charge people the max to draw and you can extract value. Btw; had you flopped J9x you don't want to bet all in to get him to fold; you want to encourage him to call drawing almost dead, yes I've had lots of people hit 1-2 outers on me and I've wanted to smash my computer - but count the number of pots I've won by straight up value betting/semi-bluffing.....
You also speak about check/shoving turns - this is LHE and you might find that a little difficult with 5.5BB left!! X/ring the flop helps remove some of the turn issues you face - you are probably going to have to fold to the turn bet as it nukes another part of his range you were beating and you are going to have to call a river bet not knowing where you are in the hand....
Cliff notes: Pre-flop; if you think he is that tight/that good and you are worried about not playing well with few bets left - fold.
IF you do call and hit that flop; find an x/r on this flop and play from there...
As played - I think calling turn is by far the worst option; either x/r as planned or pitch it - you are oop so you can't raise for a free showdown either...
Fwiw - part of my joining this site is to work on my NLHE (and to a lesser extent PLO) game(s) as they suck massively compared to my limit games - luckily most 8game, at low levels on PS, players can't play Stud to save their lives....:-)
His CO range should be wide enough that J9 is a flop raise on this situation. x/c really sucks
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