180 player Turbo SnGs @Pokerstars - Set Mining with a Small Pair
Posted by BadBeatLust
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BadBeatLust
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SNGs
180 player Turbo SnGs @Pokerstars - Set Mining with a Small Pair
We all know that 180s are of the highest value(&variance) in terms of toughness and top prize.
I've always found myself a bit troubled with the way that small-medium pocket pairs are to be played early on(BB20-BB50).
Most of the times the table is quite fishy(maybe 1 other reg) and I tend to limp in EP/MP 22-88 trying to get the odds to stack off someone on the flop because in the 180s people(and when I say people I mean teh fishies) go crazy with TPTK.
In BB20-BB30 that is no problem because you usually get the implied odds to call-limp with small pairs.
But when you reach BB50++ and higher its tougher unless you are facing an already doubled up villain.
In MTTs most of the times I fold these type of hands because I know I have the time to wait for a better spot.
But in 180s, where a double up pre-ante is essential in order to maneuver more easily when antes come into play and the jam phase begins, is it worth it to take these minor -EV (PF) risks in order to find yourself massively +EV when you hit a set?
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I'd be more inclined to just dump 22-55 in EP pre-ante than I would to limp, but I still think I'm open-raising them most of the time on a stack >30bb. I'd be interested to hear some reasons why we would play 180s so differently than we would a regular MTT.
Secondly, once you get to jam/fold stage avg stack lets say at BB250 is around 3.2-3.7k so that would be 13-15bbs.
You are 25 minutes into the tournament and you might have blinded down to a 1k stack because of no profitable spots.
I have found that in general, people in SnGs are more careless with their stack and punt it off too easily.
That's why I have found that limping first 2 levels with 22-77 is +$EV, because you can easily stack off 2 people and have a dominating stack which will be very useful if you can't find any other spots until the antes come into play.
I would link a hand history that shows that but atm a bit hard because I'm not on my grinding pc.
I agree with raising, I never limp unless I am deep and know that I won't get raised in late position. Otherwise, raise small, 10/20 level I'm fine with a raise of 45-60 and we can fold to a 3bet if we don't have setmining odds.
15/30 raise to 70ish, 25/50 depending on stack sizes and PP I raise or fold. For example, I will open fold 22-77, 88 I raise to 125. This is just a bit of theory, but it all depends on players left to act and stack sizes, but I'm never open folding a pocket pair on first level, irrelevant of my position.
@serbie: At T100 it is incorrect to jam 15BBs with 22-77 you will never get called by worse and you are not getting the correct odds.
This is partly what is going on in these games. Really it comes from a few of the top 180 man players using a limp pre with pocket pairs strategy. These players teach this to their horses and horses teach to students and peers and so on. Certainly many rec players limp everywhere, but there are plenty of winning players that limp all pairs from early position (some continue the same from late position as well).
Just to re iterate there are plenty winning players and some top regs that limp pairs early game.
How can they do something so exploitable? The secret is that there are no players who exploit them for doing so. We get in a trap thinking "Never do this" because we hear from pros its exploitable, or because in year 20xx such a play was naturally countered by the field. But in truth we should choose the most optimal play for each spot, and ignore such comments.
In spots where set mining is viable (+ev) we should rarely if ever be folding pre. On a really loose passive table limping might make sense because a raise is rarely going to get through, and therefore won't be immediately +ev. Furthermore we are likely to be playing oop vs loose fish, and so we'll have to showdown a low pocket pair vs 1 or two players that don't toss any aces or broadway away preflop.
Vs bad loose passive players we can spend 1 bb and often see a flop vs all the bad players at the table. Even if someone tries to iso us we usually have decent odds to see a flop vs most of the same players in the hand.
To me this is a really a secret to poker, there are no wrong lines, just lines used in the wrong context becoming -ev, or the correct context becoming +ev. This topic is a good example of it all I think.
Also, we should always look at corollaries to these questions. How can I exploit players that are limping pairs? The simple answer is to isolate them with any pair, any broadway, many Ax hands, suited connectors maybe, etc. These players will check fold almost always, when they check raise they have a set.
We are refering to regs set mining, not rec player, but we can deal with both in much the same way.
What is important to understand is these types of regs do not have the odds to set mine vs our iso, since we have such a weak range and are we unlikely to stack of when they DO hit a set.
If we are in a later position and believe that open raising will get through enough in itself to be +ev, generally raising > limping.
Cliffs: Iso limpers, limping > folding in set mining spots
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