Why is limping false preflop and what the math behind this?
Posted by GeoPur
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GeoPur
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Low Stakes
Why is limping false preflop and what the math behind this?
Why is limping false preflop? What is the math behind it? Also if villain open limps from hj for example is it ok to limp in those cases? Also why is limping correct at the sb vs BB plus in Heads Up? Thank you!
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I don't think limping is false preflop per se. Nowadays there are actually people who use solid limping strategies from early positions and seem to be doing fine, Juan Pastor from RIO being one of them.
Back in the day limping was considered to be bad altogether because by limping you fail to get any fold equity preflop. Nowadays limping SB is considered somewhat standard, and it's really just based on math, you simply have good enough odds to call stuff.
Open limping and limping behind (after someone else has limped) are two separate things. In your question, you seem to conflate the two.
In general, open limping is usually bad, while limping behind is acceptable in certain cases.
The basic idea is simple: by open limping, you give away the strength of your hand (usually not premium), and you don't have fold equity preflop. If someone raises behind you, you either have to limp/call or limp/fold (or limp-reraise, but that's rare). Now you're in a bloated pot without the initiative, with a weak range and out of position.
Limping behind (usually from late position or from the SB) is often ok, because you usually have position postflop (if limping behind from late position) or good pot odds (in the case of SB). Also, you don't have to defend your range much because most of the burden of defence rests with the open limper.
However, any strategy can be made to work if you work to balance your ranges. It's just harder to build a limping range, and an open range; rather than just an open range.
... or just a limp range.
Samu Patronen Sure, as you mentioned, limping from the SB is often a good strategy.
However, at the stakes I play, I find that people don't defend the BB often enough (or they defend too wide and make lots of errors postflop), so I only open-raise from the SB. Stealing the blinds is so profitable.
Oh yes, I would agree that in most games you're better of just raising your small blind because you get enough folds for it to be really good. Rake is also an issue.
Let's say it's 6max. And 1st player to act limp. Now we're at HJ. The rest of the table (except the guy who open limped) are world class players(who know each other) and who apply gto strategies. And let's assume that we as well do the same and our opponents know that. The only bad player at the table is the guy who opened limped.
At this scenario is it profitable to limp at HJ? I want to understand in which cases its not good to limp, thats why I gave such an extreme scenario.
You say also that any strategy can become profitable. Does this mean that we can open limp with 4 tough players waiting to act and balance it with an opening range and all this to be +EV?
Well, this is just my opinion, but I almost never limp behind from HJ. The more players which are to act behind us, the more chance we have to face a raise and play the pot from OOP. Also, if the limper is bad, it's better to ISO raise them, rather than limp behind them.
In general, I only limp behind from BTN or SB.
I don't know what GTO says because I don't know what the GTO solution is. My comment about balancing ranges was simply to say that you have to defend a certain portion of your range against aggression, and thus you need to put a certain amount of medium to strong hands in your limp range.
Mostly it just doesnt pressure the blinds and the odds are not good enough unless theres antes involved or you are in the SB. Basically you win at 150bb/100 everytime you raise and take down the blinds. Limping needs to do better then this and you pay 5% when you see a flop so its difficult for limping to be better then raising.
Guys who limp and do well at it its just because they are exploiting their opponents. Some players attack limps with isolation raises far too wide assuming hero has a well thought out range and strategy.
Definitely dont play a limp strategy from sb when folded to at lower stakes. Play raise/fold - players typically overfold, under 3b, rake sucks and its easier to not play a split range from sb...unnecessary to complicate gameplan and its the inferior strategy at lower limits...
Main reason is rake. You want to deincentivize flops being seen as the rake is so high everywhere these days.
Second reason being that the strategy is much more complicated when you add multiple strategic options pre-flop.
That is why you see good players at high stakes use limping strategies sometimes - low relative rake and they understand the complex strategies better than others.
By limping the BB gets to see a flop for free and there is a decent chance that his 72 outflop your AA. Thats the math.
72 outflops AA about 3.3% percent of the time, which means that if you limp your AA every time and he checks his 72 he wins 1/33 pots vs you for free.
To see a flop he has to invest nothing.
If you raise to 3x he has to call 2BB every time, which means that he has to pay 32*2 BB = 64 BB before his 72 outflops your AA.
I´m not a pro and this is just what I think. Don´t quote me on this, I could be wrong in a lot of ways.
72o has 11.80% equity vs AA.
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