What is your bb/100 for the cbet, check, call line in a single raised pot?

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What is your bb/100 for the cbet, check, call line in a single raised pot?

Think I might be calling rivers too much and was wondering how my bb/100 compares to others in this spot. I am losing 133 bb/100, not really sure if I should show a profit on this line?

The spot is heads up, single raised pots as the preflop raiser when you bet flop, check turn, call river in position.

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HawksWin 2 years, 5 months ago

This is a good approach you are taking, filtering lines and finding out what is going on is much better than blindly pouring over hand histories.

In general, simply re-organizing your range can turn things around.

River probing is Massively profitable and you have to find out a way to combat it.

Some general ideas would be:

1) Figure out where you can barrel turns more. You will start to win pots on the turn uncontested with the bottom portion of your range (the hands that often get checked on the turn). Also, continue to barrel most of your value.

2) If you do check to exploit the probe line, make sure you are protecting your check range giving yourself better hands to call rivers with.

3) If you determine that they are weighted towards value more, you can simply one and done.

4) If you determine that they have bluffs or weaker value, you can start raising rivers. Yes you are going to get caught sometimes but don't be discouraged.

5) Study how the ranges interact with each other and pay very close attention to texture. Are they probing rivers where draws don't close? What does it mean when they probe on a draw closing river? Etc.

Steve Paul 2 years, 5 months ago

Folding is going to be something like -400bb/100 (assuming 2.5x open, cbet 1.5bb.) So anything >-400bb/100 means you're doing better than folding. But honestly I don't think that kind of analysis is useful at all here. I have no idea what kind of winrate you should expect and it's not so clear what it means if your winrate is good/bad. It could have to that you call some bad bluffcatchers, fold some good ones, bet too many/few value hands on the turn, check too many/too few weak hands on the turn, etc.

Just drill the spot in GTOw or other program and see where your intuition is off about what hands want to call. One thing I've found is that this is generally not very difficult - the more difficult part is getting to the river with a reasonable range. So once you feel comfortable with the river mechanic, spend more time getting good at turn barrelling ranges.

ten25 2 years, 5 months ago

My concern is that I might be calling too lightly, but I guess as long as I show a better win rate than folding, the river calls (overall) must be profitable ... but that doesn't necessarily mean the flop cbet was good.

Steve Paul 2 years, 5 months ago

Right but your winrate in that line doesn't really tell you anything, there are many leaks that could cause that number to be too high or low, calling too lightly is just one of them. Also, it being better than folding overall doesn't mean you're not calling too lightly - some river calls will be significantly +EV, so just being >-400bb/100 doesn't tell you a whole lot.

I think a much better use of your time is to review some calls (predict what hands should be calls/folds, only then check with solver) and/or drilling the spot.

Gino Song 2 years, 5 months ago

Using the winrate alone won't tell you the full story since it might be a case of false-positive/negative. Look at the hands your opponents are betting and what your river calling range is in these spots. Cbet check call means you have a medium strength hand and if your opponents are not trying to make those hands indifferent by bluffing then you are overcalling vs value and hence the -winrate. If that is the case you are much better double barreling thinner for value with medium hands on turns and checking back rivers. If your opponents have unbalanced river bet ranges, you can just exploit using the other line previously mentioned rather than being compelled to fully balance a closer to gto river calling range with stronger hands. It's up to your playstyle whether you want to play defense in these spots with GTO or go aggressive with counter-exploits in other areas.

HawksWin 2 years, 5 months ago

ten25 What is your winrate, in aggregate, when you c bet turns?

ten25 2 years, 5 months ago

649bb/100 ... that is across several limits on a soft site (segregated pool in US) and includes 3bet+ pots ... 512bb/100 in single raised

I think I see where you're going with this ... LOL.

Let's see if I'm right... I think that what I'm doing on River is likely good overall (doesn't mean every call was good...), because if I'm that +EV on turn barrels, and on River my win rate is better than folding, then my Turn Check back/River calls overall have to be +EV

HawksWin 2 years, 5 months ago

What is your winrate, in aggregate, in 2 bet pots, IP when you have c bet the flop and miss the turn c bet (checked back)?

HawksWin 2 years, 5 months ago

Also, what is your c bet flop % IP (and what is your c bet success rate?)

What is your c bet turn % IP (and what is your c bet success rate?)

HawksWin 2 years, 5 months ago

While it is true that losing at -130bb/100 is better than losing at -250bb/100
(we RFI and lose that bet when we fold on the flop. The alternative is we get called and arrive at later streets in a pot where we RFI and have C bet flop (so we are easily 5bb+ invested here with a RFI and C bet). Folding here loses -5bb or -500bb/100. So clearly your winrate is better, but this doesn't work.

*Disclaimer, I am removing limping preflop from our strategy. And also this post assumes you are in non-blind positions.

Without limping, our options are to fold (0 ev) or RFI (most certainly +ev, but it doesn't really matter here.

When you look at your winrate/loss rate in a line, you will want to keep this number as close to zero as possible and hopefully slightly positive. Don't make the mistake of not considering this.

A clear pool leak is having a checking range that is too weak. Lines where players check are massively profitable to attack relentlessly. Players that attack check ranges are going to kill players who check too weakly. So, to combat the players who are attacking turn/river check is to bet into them more often on the turn/river.

So then, what adjustments do you think you can make to improve your success in this line?

1) Just protect your check range more often (don't forget just how great value betting is vs a pool calls too much). However, look to check strong 1 time in 4 or 1 time in 5.
2) If you have a reads on someone and they probe too much, you are going to be able to call more and raise more with the right combos.

Simple changes will cut this loss rate in no time. Just takes some rearranging of your range.

ten25 2 years, 5 months ago

So with the following filter in HM3 ... (InPositionOnFlop=true AND DidPFR=true AND FlopContinuationBetMade=true AND DidThreeBet=false and FacingPreflopThreeBet=false AND FacingPreflopFourBet=false and TurnContinuationBetMade=false AND TurnContinuationBetPossible=true) I'm showing -113 bb/100.

I am not sure that I have a problem of calling light anymore (except maybe in some specific hands I played) ... not really sure it's worth making any changes except looking in some spots where I tried to bluff catch big bets and was wrong ... unless it will increase my overall winrate. (i.e. there is no point in shifting 150bb/100 winrate from 1 line to another if the net result is the same)

Gino Song 2 years, 5 months ago

your turn cbet winrate looks high, check your flop cbet and river cbet for comparison - if everything is high then your just betting too strong value

or it could your not cbetting flops enough and saving all that power for turn cbet

if that is the case, redistribute your range by cbetting more frequently with weaker hands on flop and rivers, and start checking some strong hands so you can defend your river check calls

goal here is to convert that 650bb turn winrate and turning 150 of it to your river check call so that at least your breaking even or winning there

ten25 2 years, 5 months ago

I do believe my turn c-bet range is stronger than optimal - however the pool is full of calling stations / people who just won't fold (3-4 rec players at every table is normal), so I'm not sure it's good to change what I'm doing just for the sake of shifting part of my winrate from one street to another unless I am gaining additional winrate by doing so.

Steve Paul 2 years, 5 months ago

Different approaches for different people but I would not tweak my play to try to hit certain winrates in specific lines, I would just spend some time studying the line you think you're not playing well.

HawksWin 2 years, 5 months ago

ten25 I have some data for you from 10,000,000 hand sample. The details of the filter are as follows:

-NOT (Player is Hero, this removes my/our stats from the filter)
-Max RFI is 2bet
-There Was a RFI by the pool hero
-Flop seen Heads Up
-C bet Flop
-Checked Turn
-Hero is IP

Pools winrate in this line (X back turn after flop cbet). Action stops there.

Pool winrate in this line is -143.50bb/100 or almost 1.5bb lost every time you get here. Your winrate is slightly better than pool.

Pool winrate in the c bet flop and barrel turn is 224.90bb/100 or winning quite well when barreling. Can certainly be better. Your winrate was 500bb+/100 if I remember correctly.

So, if we adjust the above filter and remove "checked turn" and then give pool hero the opportunity to c bet (remember, we did not execute the c bet), what would you guess the pools winrate to be when they are faced with the decision to either miss the barrel and check back or to simply bet (barrel)????

Here is the sample size:

51,668 hands and the turn c bet was executed 52.44% of the time by IP player.

Gino Song 2 years, 5 months ago

just to clarify, are you asking for the bb/100 for:

  1. hero checks back turn after flop cbet
  2. hero double barrel turn after flop cbet
    vs.
  3. hero checks back turn OR double barrel turn after flop cbet

correct?

ill let OP answer first and refrain from input but i think i know where you are going with this analysis

HawksWin 2 years, 5 months ago

Yeah, that's it basically. We want to know what our winrates are with the different lines (bet or x back) and then seen how we do overall when we have the opportunity to execute one move or the other.

Gino Song 2 years, 5 months ago

im ganna go with a number between the two winrates and say ~40/bb

which means i think vs passive pool tendencies your better off just blindly double barreling and making your decision at river when it checks to you instead of checking turn and having a to face river decision vs opponent bets

ten25 2 years, 5 months ago

Thanks for the responses everyone, mostly I am on a bad run so far this month and made some questionable calls on the River and just kinda feeling exploited on this line ... so I was looking in to it. After looking at it I really think what I'm doing is ok, given that the pool I'm in is full of nonfolders, but there are definitely some spots mixed in to this line where I should have folded.

ten25 2 years, 5 months ago

Month is turning around. Hope I didn't just jinx it. May move back up to 100NL if I can keep things going back in this direction ...

... and yearly so far

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