What is the community's consensus on buying datamined hands?
Posted by ChunkyMonkey
Posted by
ChunkyMonkey
posted in
Low Stakes
What is the community's consensus on buying datamined hands?
What about it? The impression I have is that this is viewed negatively by most, but I haven't seen it discussed much. I also had the opinion that it is almost cheating or is at least a very sketchy thing to do, and that it seems almost lazy and undisciplined. But now I'm wondering, aside from the fact that it is obviously against the rules of poker sites, why should this not be used as a tool for learning?
We all use tracking software to learn about our games and our opponent's stats, we all use a HUD in-game, many of us are fine with solvers, but then why is buying hand histories bad?
The way we discuss the game begs this question. We talk about "mass player pool analysis" and "what the field does on average", but it seems to me that such claims are either unfounded, based on anecdotal experience, or based on unreliable sample sizes. The sorts of sample sizes that we typically have in our databases seem unreasonable for drawing firm conclusions in all but the most common spots in poker (in my opinion). For example, to understand how a player in EP responds to a 3bet from CO, we need a sample on how they play facing a 3bet from at least any IP player, if not from CO specifically. We can't just see 1000 hands on this player and assume his fold vs 3bet or his 4bet range stat means anything. If we love our statistics so much and rely heavily on tracking software, it seems funny to reject the acquisition of a meaningful sample size so that we can actually use our statistics.
So is there some compelling reason (other than "it is against the terms & conditions") that this topic is frowned upon? Is it even frowned upon? If so, is it more about respecting the game than anything else? If that is the case, then where is the line?
Loading 7 Comments...
the negative consensus is people virtue signaling, nobody really cares in the end
people use software, automated controls, bum hunt, etc that go against poker room rules all the time and they justify it when it clearly breaks terms of service and they can get banned, but that edge is too tempting to pass up for them
its all up to your own risk vs reward judgment based on the rules of the site your playing on
"If so, is it more about respecting the game than anything else? If that is the case, then where is the line?"
respecting the game lulz...too late for that we are in the era of solvers and that is going to break the game abuse the players to the max
the line is you cant look at your opponents hole cards :p anything else is fair game
I think it's very important that poker sites stop what is prohibited like mining, seating scripts, GTO assistance, HUDs (on sites it's not allowed), bots, etc. If it's too easy to use then you are more or less forced to join them (mostly thinking about seating scripts and HUD/DB).
Mined HHs is a less severe form of cheating but still cheating on most sites. You don't break any TOS if you get mined hands from a site you never played on to study general population trends. So I'd recommend getting HHs from a site you don't play to if you want to get HHs.
Cheating is not a big issue in most 6max cash games I've played in or heard about. It will happen from time to time but not an issue all the time.
But this is information that one would obtain by just observing anyway (it is not like we gain some secrets about players' hole cards). What makes it cheating when they are bought but completely ok when we sit and accumulate those same hands via our PT4? Or you mean it is "considered cheating" by the poker rooms?
So you buy 200k hands of a player giving you details on XR river tendencies in 3betpots that no-one would even recognize after playing 1k hands...
So you gain an advantage by mining that no-one else is able to gain by playing a regular game vs the player....sounds like cheating
It's cheating because the poker site define it as cheating in their TOS.
RaoulFlush (sorry don't know how to reply under your specific comment) good point, and I was not initially thinking about how datamined hands could be used to exploit specific players, but rather to inform our understanding of a player pool. But I do find it still quite a gray area: I could datamine 1k hands on someone and it is no different to playing 1k hands, but all of a sudden I am "cheating" when I buy it but not when I play for the hands. Granted your example with 200k hands is far clearer, but it is not beyond possibility that you could play 200k hands against someone (maybe heads up in a small player pool, but I know I'm stretching the argument).
I just hear a lot of talk about "the player pool" as a whole for some quite specific spots, and I feel like most of these claims are unjustified if they are not based on actual analysis of a large dataset. Datamining hands would support these claims, and in my opinion would be the only way to do so.
You have to play 1000 hands against the guy to get the info and thus that player gets an equal chance to gain info on you. If you go buy hands and he doesn't, only you get the advantage. (this is in response to your "it is no different to playing 1k hands"...of course it's different!)
Be the first to add a comment