Using bluffcatchers, Question

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Using bluffcatchers, Question

BB: $54.19
HJ: $53.40 (Hero)
CO: $33.87
BN: $95.27
SB: $53.61
Preflop ($0.75) (5 Players)
Hero was dealt 8 T
Hero raises to $1.50, CO folds, BN folds, SB folds, BB calls $1
Villain was unknown reg
Flop ($3.25) T 7 3 (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.11, BB raises to $4.22, Hero calls $2.11
Villain was unknown reg
Turn ($11.69) T 7 3 3 (2 Players)
BB bets $5.50, Hero calls $5.50
River ($22.69) T 7 3 3 J (2 Players)
BB bets $10.50, Hero calls $10.50
Final Pot
BB has 9 J BB wins $41.72
Hey guys, so here's this question, which I was unsure about...

Which of these both plans would be more willing or better to use?

Plan A) We Re-raise the flop, as we have this top pair bluff catcher... If Villain calls or 5bets, he is doing this with the best hand only, so its an easy fold... When we call, we protect ourselves from tough decisions on Turn/River, where we would otherwise need to hero call, if any High-Card or 3rd tone hits.

Plan B) We use our bluffcatcher and call him, putting him on a flush draw... (but we don't know either he has a draw or good hand), and Turn/River calls are standart, if it bring no 3rd tone... And if it hits Overcard, he would use it for a scarecard too, so we call in hope that he has air?

So I was usually using the plan A and saved from lot of troubles, but I was curious, which of both options is "best"?

9 Comments

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BigFiszh 12 years ago
OK, first of all, you gave no information on Villain - which might be an indicator that you´re not properly thinking through any aspect of this scenario (no offense intended, I just try to help you developing a good thought process). The important information is

- what´s his calling-range pre (what does he 3-bet/flat with)
- what´s your image at the table
- did you have any history with each other
- do you have any specific reads on this guy
- what´s his postflop-aggression (f/t/r)
- what´s his x/r on the flop
- what´s his WTSD/W$SD and his W$WSF

and son on ... That would help narrowing down his range.

Second, if you 3-bet the flop - solely with the intention to give-up when Villain does not fold - you could use 42o as well, right? Would you 3-bet the flop with 42o? Do you really expect any fold equity?

That said, this is a draw-heavy board, giving Villain tons of possible draws. Once he min-x/r you it´s pretty unlikely he´s giving up against a 3-bet, making a 3-bet as a bluff pretty nonsensical. Not to mention that you have TP, backdoor-flush-draw, block topset and have position. You got THE NUTS. :-D Turning that into a bluff would be pretty atrocious. That said, there´s only one single reason for 3-betting: for value.

So, let´s look at his range. What value-range is he repping? I´d say close to zero. He probably would 3-bet any overpair, so, there are only 9 combos of 2pair or better (1 x TT, 3 x 77, 3 x 33, 2 x T7s). Then recognize his raise-size. Does that look like a set to you? I strongly doubt that. But on the other hand there are myriads of draws outside.

So, I´d say we have the best hand close to 100% and there´s only one decision left: 3-bet/call or slowplay and let him continue barreling. With all the draws out there and us not knowing which cards will improve him I´d strongly advocate 3-betting and calling it off. As played you played it fine.
efas 12 years ago
Don't really like to 3bet stack off idea on the flop. Even if he have a draw we are flipping. We pushing out his random bluffs, and we are dogs vs any made hand that he is stacking off here.
So bluff catcher should serve as a bluff catcher not value hand.
Flop we call, given the size, the blocker, the draws.
Turn is good card for us - makes a set of 3 less likely.
River J kind of connects with the flop, few draws hit there, few draws made a top pair. Before callin the flop raise i would probably stick to the plan to fold if a spade or A hits the board.
Now his sizing is very interesting, it doesn't look like a bluff so the call on river is definitely marginal, but we can call and expect to be good sometimes, and just gain information about his post flop play.
BigFiszh 12 years ago
> By 3-betting and calling it off, you mean, Re-raising flop and calling all-in?

Yes.

As far as "bluffcatchers should serve as bluffcatchers not value hands" goes, you should think about your entire range. We have an airpairt on this flop as well - and we want to be able to rebluff Villain. The thinner we go for value against his draws, the harder it gets for him to just bluff us with his equity hands.
clark116 11 years, 11 months ago
I don't like the idea of re-bluffing the villain with air on this flop ever. You make it really profitable for him to just shove his decent draws over you. We are going to have enough draws that can 3 bet and go with it here that I don't see much need to ever 3bet air on this flop. And if I am not 3betting air I don't see the need to protect this with thin value.
clark116 11 years, 11 months ago
I would always go with a call here on the flop. I wouldn't be 3bet/folding anything, since I expect to get shoved on by draws a lot, 3bet/folding this hand would be pretty horrific IMO. I think 3bet/ calling could be ok depending on your range, but we are in position and spr is still pretty deep if we call so I think this is an advantage. If he is ever check raising airy hands that fold to a 3bet we might get more bluffs out of them, we may even find a few rivers where it becomes profitable to turn our hand into a bluff when checked to. I think that vs an aggro opponent AT (without the ace of spades) is where I would start 3betting the flop for value with the intention of getting AI.
ShiestyShamus 11 years, 11 months ago
I always try to think of what would make our hand much harder to play against if we were in the villain's shoes. And I'm being a little unconventional here, but why not bet/call the flop and do a min reraise on the turn and force him to basically flip his hand right the hell over then instead of playing the guessing game on the river where it'll cost more to make a call.

A) We gain more value from his draws when he misses.

B) We make it much less likely that he'll try to donk some bullshit type overcard hand he hits like the jack for thin value when we show aggression on the turn making him much easier to play against.

C) It's much cheaper to reraise/fold the turn when he's already got us beat than it is to call/muck the river.

D) I really wouldn't worry about getting rebluffed at all here. The villain's range is very draw heavy since he didn't 3bet on the river and didn't check/raise large enough OOP to try to blow us off anything but air, and made hands probably won't be doing that with a 2 tone flop OOP. We however have all of the solid made hands like Top notch pairs and sets in our range, so if villain starts to try to rebluff us on the turn in spots like this, our range's equity absolutely steamroll's his with the hands we can continue with, and we'll make lots of money in the long run getting our stacks in with about 80% equity against a draw. Not to mention that with the board being paired, it almost looks like we're inviting him to get great odds to call for a spade that's actually drawing dead.




James Hudson 11 years, 11 months ago
"Plan A) We Re-raise the flop, as we have this top pair bluff catcher... If Villain calls or 5bets, he is doing this with the best hand only, so its an easy fold... When we call, we protect ourselves from tough decisions on Turn/River, where we would otherwise need to hero call, if any High-Card or 3rd tone hits."

This just seems mentally lazy to me. It's also pretty bad for balance. What is your calling range going to look like if you 3 bet all your medium strength hands on this kind of board? It seems like it would only be draws and potentially some slowplays making you pretty vulnerable to barrels. Also, you allow villain to play his draws incredibly aggressively vs you because he knows you 3 bet flops wide for "value" and even find folds with some of those value hands.

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