Tough 1/2 river spot with queens
Posted by 2smart4u
Posted by
2smart4u
posted in
Mid Stakes
Tough 1/2 river spot with queens
Hero starts hands with 150 at 1/2, all villains cover.
Hero utg+2,
utg limps, utg+1 limps, hero raises to 14 with qq. Mp calls, utg calls, everyone else folds.
Flop comes k67 rainbow, utg checks, hero checks, mp checks.
Thoughts for checking in opposition to betting: seems standard, if i bet into 2 opppnents i cant really have bluffs in my range. Im short stack relative to the pot and can get blown off my hand easily by draws. Cant really see many worse hands calling on the flop.
Turn comes k, board reads k67k rainbow.
Utg checks, i bet 25, mp folds, utg flats.
Seems like standard value bet and sizing. Very difficult for either opponent to have K once utg checks turn. Mp should never be checking back k or set on flop. Utg range seems 88-jj. A7ss type holdings. Possibly 89suited but i think its unlikely.
River 5, board reads k67k5.
Utg leads 65 into 90. Hero tank calls. Utg shows 55 for rivered full house.
Cant really see my self folding this river. Hes basically representing so few hands that getting 2.7 ish to 1 im not sure if i can fold. It seems difficult for him to be bluffing
Thoughts on my line, sizing, river decision?
Thanks.
Loading 10 Comments...
Your overall thougt process looks decent, regarding the final results of your ideas, but reveals some flaws. I will go in detail - but I want to put ahead that I don't want to belittle you or offend you, I just look to give you friendly and constructive advice, ok?
That said, first of all, we have not enough information on the game. From your reported HH one can guess that we are talking about a 9/10-handed table and from your non-full-stack I'd assume that we are talking about a live game, correct? What are your information on the players involved? If you want to get help, don't let your supporters do you job, support them: :)
OK, in detail:
1) "... if i bet into 2 opppnents i cant really have bluffs in my range"
What? For sure you can - and should! If you are not heavily exploiting your opponents, you should definitely have a bluffing-range. You probably want to say that your valuerange (still depending on your betsize) is rather small, so that your bluffing-range is tiny as well - but it is existent.
Checking the flop is perfectly fine in theory, but given all I can see here (you should be able to assess that better!) we are playing against, meh, say, not the brightest players in the world - so EASY valuebet!!
2) "Seems like standard value bet and sizing"
I hate that word "standard" for non-standard situations so much ...betting is fine (obv.), but betsize should be bigger!! I will talk about revealing the results later - but WTF, your bet got called by 55 - and you think your sizing was okay ("standard")? Do you really think he had folded against 30 ... 35?
3) "Cant really see my self folding this river. Hes basically representing so few hands that getting 2.7 ish to 1 im not sure if i can fold. It seems difficult for him to be bluffing"
Here's where my head exploded. :D You really left me flabbergasted. Why the hell should you not be able to find a fold on the river?! The more I think about (and you SHOULD have thought about this hand even longer than me) how is this not an insta-fold?! This guy does not make some shy blockbet to take his mediocre hand to showdown, he places a healthy bet. You expected him to limp with JJ - so he's most likely a rather passive player. What should a passive player bet here for value on the river?! It doesn't matter the least how "unlikely" 55 are or how tiny his valuerange is. Even if he can only one single freaking combo - if his bluff-range is ZERO, you still lose 100%.
Then you say yourself "... getting 2.7ish to 1" you are "not sure" if you can fold. It's pretty easy. Estimate his value range and then count how many combos he could bluff with. Do you get a sufficient price still? Here, given what I've seen so far, I'd say his valuerange is 55(3), 98s (once in a blue moon, so say 2 combos), that makes 5 combos. What could he potentially bluff with? I'd say ... mmmh ... wait a second ... ... ... shit. I don't see what this passive, limpy guy could potentially be bluffing with at all! So, our odds still are 5:0, not a sufficient proportion for the 2.7:1 odds we are offered. So we'd need some combos that we beat and that he could be betting for different reasons, be it for value or as a blockbet. But again - a guy that you estimate to limp JJ preflop or limp-call A7ss - would that guy really bet JJ (or worse) on the river - for 2/3 pot? Rather unlikely, huh?
So, some intelligent person once said - if all impossible options are eliminated, the remaining option, as unlikely as it is - has to be true. => easy fold.
BigFiszh
PS: One last word - you should refrain from posting the results, unless they are somehow relevant to demonstrate information on that player, but in that case you could just give some reads you already have. It makes it easier to evaluate the situation free-minded.
Thx man. Really helpfull.
This guy just gave you some of the best and in depth info you could ask for. I'd highly suggest re-reading his response and solidifying what he said. Well said BigFiszh.
Thanks for the comments. I slept on the hand and woke up thinking essentially similar thought processes to you. I still think my flop and turn line are fine. I think it was an easy river fold and a clear mistake.
In position i would bet flop, but out of position i think my check is reasonable.
Had no reads, was my third hand on the table. Villain was wearing a hood with sunglassess on in a live 1/2 sitting on 600+. Clear fish, he was applying a limping his entire range strategy.
Thanks for the input, ill be sure to apply it in the future
I don't think you seriously considered the advice given to you if you think your flop and turn play were fine. As played on the flop I'm continuation betting a large % of the time and betting much larger on the turn. Highly doubt this villain sticks around for the river if played that way, but pretty easy fold when led into for that size.
ballinonabudget, after some more though about what bigfizsh said, i think my flop check was terrible and weak. turn bet was weak, river play poor. i played a few session since that session. 2 wins, 1 loss. Much more aggressive flop play, bigger value bets, and it has shown some reasonable success.
I'm assuming this is live poker? If so I would advise that you will rarely be facing a bluff in this spot. You will also not have the best hand most of the time. Players at live 1/2 are generally really passive and not looking to run bluffs. River bets are almost always value bets.
About the turn: "Very difficult for either opponent to have K once utg checks turn. Mp should never be checking back k or set on flop." I disagree and believe that either can have a K very often with KQ, KJ, K10 even AK all within their ranges. These players play very passive and bad. They will flat AK, or limp call with KJ utg.
Thanks for your input, i agree with your comments about the implications of kings in their respective ranges. however, once bad passive players make top pairs they revert away from passive scared lines and become aggressive, and considering neither took lines on the flop, or turn i comfortably ruled out kings from their respective ranges. the check call lead river with 66/77 doesnt seem likely either, which is why i ruled out flopped sets from utg range.
Hi,
I play similair games and learning as well. These threads are really valuable, so thx for posting.
With the blinds and 2 limpers I would really bet more like 18 (22 also works at my game ) or something with QQ. This is for value and info at the same time. If you get callers it is much easier to put them on a range. For the same reasons I would Cbet the flop here. It could be around 20-28 again it does not have to be big.
If he stuck around and made that move on the river your fold would have been a lot easier.
Think ranges and what they could have and what you could have.
Great advice from BigFizh.
Keep on learning( I was talking to myself)
thanks teddy, i agree re most of it. so many lines you can take against these ultra passive opponents. was a difficult spot considering i had just sat down, however in review it should have been a clear laydown. idiots with sunglasses and a hood on at 1am on a saturday in a 1/2 arent bluffing rivers oop.
Be the first to add a comment