Too thin?
Posted by Chael Sonnen
Posted by Chael Sonnen posted in Low Stakes
Too thin?
BN: MisteryManBH: $49.39
SB: alepa: $158.05
BB: Hero: $132.29
UTG: vrnMike: $228.01
HJ: sooraw: $126.90
CO: saltwaterjoe: $105.78
SB: alepa: $158.05
BB: Hero: $132.29
UTG: vrnMike: $228.01
HJ: sooraw: $126.90
CO: saltwaterjoe: $105.78
Preflop
($1.50)
(6 Players)
Hero was dealt
6
Q
vrnMike folds, sooraw folds, saltwaterjoe folds, MisteryManBH folds, alepa raises to $3, Hero calls $2
vrnMike folds, sooraw folds, saltwaterjoe folds, MisteryManBH folds, alepa raises to $3, Hero calls $2
Hand is good enough to call. Could 3-bet as a bluff, but it seems fine.
I noted him as a reg today. Didn't know a lot about him when we played the hand.
I noted him as a reg today. Didn't know a lot about him when we played the hand.
Flop
($6.50)
9
7
T
(2 Players)
alepa checks,
Hero bets $3.50,
alepa calls $3.50
This is a terrible board for him to c-bet, so I tried to take it down. Also expected a bunch of check/calls,, but we have no showdown value, and straight and barreling outs.
Turn
($13.50)
9
7
T
4
(2 Players)
alepa checks,
Hero bets $16.50,
alepa calls $16.50
When he calls, I think he has bunch of one pair hands, usually with some kind of gutshot. 96/T6/98/T5/QT etc.
These hands probably call again on the turn, and fold on a brick river bomb.
Decided to overbet, because these hands will have a very hard time calling again, and being OOP. It's not a great spot for it, but this turn overbet has worked absolute wonders. Players give a lot of credit to overbets.
These hands probably call again on the turn, and fold on a brick river bomb.
Decided to overbet, because these hands will have a very hard time calling again, and being OOP. It's not a great spot for it, but this turn overbet has worked absolute wonders. Players give a lot of credit to overbets.
River
($46.50)
9
7
T
4
8
(2 Players)
alepa checks,
Hero bets $27,
alepa calls $27
So we hit our dummy straight, and I'm unsure if I should bet for value.
He has some Jx in his range: J9/JT/.J7, but I don't think he c/c naked overcards with a Jack twice.
After his c/c, I think his range is weighted towards some two pair hands, pair+gutshot that filled up.
By betting here, we something fold a chop, and get a hero call out of the hands I mentioned.
I think it's also good to value bet pretty thinly here, because it will make it very tough for Villian to play similar spots.
But...
He has some Jx in his range: J9/JT/.J7, but I don't think he c/c naked overcards with a Jack twice.
After his c/c, I think his range is weighted towards some two pair hands, pair+gutshot that filled up.
By betting here, we something fold a chop, and get a hero call out of the hands I mentioned.
I think it's also good to value bet pretty thinly here, because it will make it very tough for Villian to play similar spots.
But...
Final Pot
Hero has
6
Q
alepa has
J
T
alepa
wins $97.20
Loading 18 Comments...
"Hand is good enough to call."
??
He must be trolling...
It's BB vs SB. I see every instructor making loose calls like this and say it's +EV.
CS, we shouldn't be blindly listening to Instructors advice's, if we don't actually understand the underlining fundamentals behind the Play.
1) You have to understand why flatting a hand like Q6o is +EV, either by quantifying it, or justifying it with your own reasoning's.
OTR: I'm split between checking 50%/ 50% with your hand, since VIllain clearly has more JX than u in this RIver Checking range.
Bet/fold probably.
Villain pretty much Butchered the hand also.
Not C/R river with TJ????
scared of JQ lol, note for future ~ no XR without absolute nuts~
So, does anyone have a comment about my line?
The call is so bad it`s making comments disappear :).
Jk, interested to what happened to Felipe`s comment i wanted to thumbs it up.
You still haven't done anything but moan.
Let's discuss the hand.
Hehe, pretty weird. Guess I can post it again, cuz it still appears on my dashboard:
CS, you`re probably referring to Sauce`s video where he calls J5o on BvB. But there is a big difference there: SB min-raised. Against a min-raise you have 3 to 1, needing to realize 25% of the pot, making it a good call with a hand like Q6o, being IP against a wide opening range getting such a good price.
Against 3x your odds are worse, you now need to realize 33% of the pot. I think some KXo might be ok against 3x, if you know villain is stealing wide from SB. QXo seems too loose imo, has bad playability and won`t win at showdown as often as K high.
Flop: good bet
Turn: I think over betting is fine, but you need to be sure you`re also over betting for value vs capped ranges, otherwise you get pretty unbalanced.
River: I think that for this value bet to be good you need to make sure he`ll call with 2 pair. He can have T8, 78, 98, 88 which are 30 combos (if he`s opening all of those offsuit on the SB). J9/JT/J7 are 27 combos (I guess most people aren`t opening J7o on the SB, so I counted only 3 combos). For a river value-bet to be better then checking IP, he needs to call with worse more often then with better.
So if he`s not calling with his 2p+ 100% of the time, it`s a check.
How can you make sure he`ll call with 2p+ ? By betting really small. I think betting something from 12$ to 16$ on the river is probably the best option here.
Btw, I think it`s better for hand discussion if you don`t post the results.
Deleted the other post :)
It's not something I used to do, but it's pretty close in EV. I'll tighten up my BB calling range a bit.
I obviously overbet my strong hands here as well.
Do you suggest betting small with nutted hands, thin value hands and bluffs? That would be the only balanced approach. Don't like bombing the nuts, bluffs, and betting small for thin value.
Yes, it doesn`t make much difference if you have a J or a 6 here since he doesn`t have many 6x in his range. So you still want to get called by 2pair if you have a J.
I would guess you don`t get to the river with many bluffs here, given that the board is rainbow on the turn. You might be bluffing with an 8, something like K8 maybe ? Either way I think your bluffing frequency would be low on this runout, which in theory is another reason for betting small.
Nobody says anything about turn overbet being terrible or it is just me? River depends only on your image, if you overbet this turn u must best this river for value imo
Logic link "hands, usually with some kind of gutshot. 96/T6/98/T5/QT etc. and later"He has some Jx in his range: J9/JT/.J7" U put him on a wrong range on turn but it doesnt matter. I think in your limits people just cant put you on bluff on this river card , because in his eyes you always has some OESD and gutshots and he almost 100% fold worse . My opinion you should bet a lot with a bluff and bet few with value -omg thats statements at GTO world!!!
I'm fine with the preflop call. I think Q4o would be too thin though. As for the flop, I think barreling is good, especially if you think he'll cbet some strong(er) parts of his range, and rarely XR.
The turn overbet seems pretty speculative to me, however- typically we want to overbet the turn either with hands which are drawing to the nuts, nutty hands, or hands which block drawing hands which river the nuts, or hands which block the nuts. I don't think Q6 qualifies as any of these, so it looks like you are trying to exploit him by overbetting.
Even though his range is capped, I'm not sure overbetting is going to exploit him. He should have a lot of hands in his calling range which improve on various rivers, and he might even have hands like TT-AA which call down on blanks (which is to say he might have a fairly balanced range). He also might be folding to the overbet nearly everytime, in which case, it IS exploitative. I guess my hunch is that you probably lacked sufficient reads in the hand to make overbetting this big the best play, but I might be wrong about that.
I dislike the turn overbet. Seems pretty unbalanced to me, of course you gonna overbet some nut hands, but definitely is not gonna be enough if you are overbetting such a wide bluffing range, you have to balance that small % of nuted hands with some small % of bluffs to the nuts. Overbet Q6o looks pretty random, and extremely wide.
BTW. Im calling pre with Q6o if SB is opening ~45%+
i dislike every street.
PF is too loose, its a losing play. it requires FPS, which leads to the flop... Flop bet is too small. Turn bet is too big (more FPS). River bet is a good size, but what jacks can you have to play this way? The whole this is incongruent with a decent range. what do you think you rep? I guess J8 actually is in your range, but that's it. And then are you bluffing the river?
What do you put villain on with this turn call? 78, 89, T8, TJ. If this is close, your river bet only gets called JX.
You have to go for thin value after he calls your over bet on the turn. This is a clear bet/fold river given the action, the question is whether the sizing should be smaller.
A smaller value bet would be better to ensure calls from all 2 pair hands and weirdly played 1 pair hands that just think you are bluffing (i feel like some people must respond like this to turn over bets. If he is not a reg or if he does not know you are, he may just think you are completely up to it with that turn bet, it is BvB, and call deciding to call most non A or K rivers).
I also think there is an argument for sizing it just the way CS did here and maybe a little bigger even, depending on your image and the dynamic between Hero and Villain. If this player recognizes that if he doesn't have a J he is bluff catching when he calls, then he is probably going to call regardless of sizing (assuming it is within the realm of standard) the times that he calls.
I do not think the turn over bet is terrible, I think its very interesting and creates a good dynamic against a player you have position on, though idk if I you should be doing it with that hand on this board. Obviously you have to balance it, but when you do over bet the turn and get there on the river I think you certainly have to go for value, but I like a smaller value bet on the river, closer to 20 given that we don't know anything about this player.
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