The line i took with my set of A

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The line i took with my set of A

BB: $7.23
UTG: $4.28
HJ: $5.18
CO: $5.13
BN: $5.04 (Hero)
SB: $6.05
Preflop ($0.07) (6 Players)
Hero was dealt A A
UTG folds, HJ folds, CO folds, Hero raises to $0.15, SB folds, BB calls $0.10
Flop ($0.32) Q A 8 (2 Players)
BB bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20
Turn ($0.72) Q A 8 7 (2 Players)
BB bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45
River ($1.62) Q A 8 7 9 (2 Players)
BB bets $1.15, Hero raises to $2.54, BB raises to $6.43, and is all in, Hero calls $1.70, and is all in
Final Pot
BB has J T BB wins $9.60

I know it's a cooler, but I just want to hear from you guys, is there anything wrong with the line i took? is it possible that i could have found a fold on the river? i know i should've raised the turn, but is the call really that bad?


13 Comments

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SCS 11 years, 9 months ago

I'd just go ahead and shove the river, otherwise I think your line is fine. Villain is going to have 2 pair, worse sets, and Ax hands in their range. You just got unlucky that villain had JT and went runner, runner perfect for the straight.

wuwei 11 years, 9 months ago
hm, villain just hit a gutshot not runner runner. I think the river raise is actually rather thin since we can discount a lot of QQ, AQ, 77 and 99 combos and its not certain that he calls all the other 2pairs (most of which are either limited to suited combos or are blocked by AA anyway). Still, I think that shoving the river is better than raise/calling.

I think I would just raise flop usually.

SCS 11 years, 9 months ago

Yeah, you're right about it not being runner, runner. Point still stands though about hero being unlucky. River is a must shove as hero has the 2nd nuts, and it's really hard for villain to have JT in this spot. Not sure what raising the flop accomplishes, as the only draws are gutshots, and it's really tough for villain to have top pair.

wuwei 11 years, 9 months ago

Yeah, AA certainly seems a good hand to slowplay flop, because we block all Ax combos. However, I dont expect villain to put in a lot of money with medium strength hands (like a weak pair) or bluffs, if we just call. Also, I don't think there are many turn cards that improve significant parts of villains range to a second best hand that will call huge raises.

Also, call flop, raise turn seems really strong in my eyes. Same holds, for call, call, raise. So, in a sense, raising flop disguises the strength of our hand. What's more, if villain decided to lead flop with any two pair or better, I think he is most likely to stack off on the flop. Say, he leads Q8, then a J turn my just kill the action.

I think slowplaying is ok, but I don't really see why it's better than just raising flop.

On this particular river, I also think we should shove, but I think it's thinner than it seems.


SCS 11 years, 9 months ago

wuwei - Raising almost certainly folds out any hand villain has, unless he has an under set, or TP, which we can get value from on later streets. Calling keeps all of villain's bluffs in. There is merit in making a small flop raise to induce a bluff shove, but unless we have a read that villain will spazz out vs a flop raise I think calling is far superior.

wuwei 11 years, 9 months ago
It sounds like you expect that villain will be donating tons of money with tons of hands when we call. I doubt that. You should realize that out of all possible holdings JT has most equity vs us. So this was a very sensible flop lead + turn barrel.

I expect the following to happen when we call: Most bluffs and medium strength hands either shut down OTT or we get one more bet out of them. We always pay off villains straight draws if he gets there. We significantly reduce the chance to stack the top of his flop leading range.

As said, I don't imply slowplaying is bad, but I just don't see its great superiority. 



BigFiszh 11 years, 9 months ago

Bayki: "thin" means that the margin between a value-raise (being called by worse hands) and a bluff-raise (that will only get called by better hands) is pretty thin, so there´s not too much value in raising. You could also translate "thin" as the small difference between the expected values (EV) of shoving and checking, like the profit of shoving is 0.5bb higher than the EV of checking. That´s "thin". Got clear?

In this spot I think though that shoving is still the best play, it´s not a "dancing-around-the-table-shove", but as played I guess it´s still the best play.


SCS 11 years, 9 months ago

wuwei - So you want to raise the flop and fold out all hands, except for worse sets and the occasional top pair hands, all of which we get value from on future streets anyway?

Are you saying that villain will shut down all of his bluffs and marginal hands on the turn/river (which he didn't by the way), but will continue versus a flop raise?

wuwei 11 years, 9 months ago
"So you want to raise the flop and fold out all hands, except for worse
sets and the occasional top pair hands, all of which we get value from
on future streets anyway?"

I don't expect to see top pair often. Why should villain lead with top pair? You seem to ignore two pairs. I think I already commented on getting value on future streets. Basically, there are a good number of turn/river cards where even 88 could get away from their hand- A8 and Q8 for sure.

"Are you saying that villain will shut down all of his bluffs and
marginal hands on the turn/river (which he didn't by the way), but will
continue versus a flop raise?"

I said I expect to get 0 OR 1 more bets out of MOST bluffs/marginal hands and commented on JT being the best possible holding for villain to bluff. I expect bluffs to fold usually vs a flop raise.
SCS 11 years, 9 months ago
So what is the purpose of raising the flop? You haven't actually made an argument for it, other than A8 or Q8 could get away from their hand on later streets, which is highly unlikely. Even if raising the flop was the best way to play top set against those two hands, it ignores villain's entire range for the sake of 4-11 hands.


NutStewie 11 years, 9 months ago

The majority of players lead boards like this with draws, either a flush draw, straight draw, gutshot, and sometimes a weaker pair. When he leads the turn again, I'm going to go ahead and say he has JT a lot of the time, maybe as much as 75%, or more. If you're not raising the turn, then just flat call the river. 

I don't see any opponent betting 3 streets, AND CALLING YOUR RAISE on the river, with worse. Also, after this hand, make a note, note your opponent led 3 streets oop with a double belly buster, also, note he defends JTs from the BB vs a BTN open, he doesn't 3bet those kind of hands. All these little pieces of information will make future decisions easier. 

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