Some Questions about 1-2 No Limit Live Loose Passive Cash Games Full Ring
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Some Questions about 1-2 No Limit Live Loose Passive Cash Games Full Ring
1. What should a good open raising range be in EP to Mid Position Look Like. I ask this because if you open 3x, 90% of the time the pot is going massively multi-way. Even if I open to 10 dollars, the pot most likely will go massively multi-way. When that happens I am check folding a lot because wtf am I going to do with AK/AQ or 88 on T92tt with a shitload of loose fish behind me that are calling everything. So some advice please on my opening range.
2. Should I have an open limping range in these loose games with very few isolator's behind me? I know limping is bad, but perhaps this an adjustment vs. these dopey's that won't know I'm out of balance, or don't care?
3. Many times stacks will be at least 125-150 bb deep, with some fish short stackers usually getting in the pot for a 12 dollar pre-flop raise and having only 70-150 bucks in front of them. My question is what should I do with sc'ers/gappers vs. an early to mp raise and a ton of callers behind and it gets to me in the later positions or in the sb/bb. Online I don't call with 89s lets say vs. a tighter utg range or mp range. So here in the live game, the opener will usually be pretty strong, I don't perceive many people opening light, but then there are a slew of callers behind who are all bad players for the most part with a mix of deep stacks and like 50-100bb stacks, should I be calling 53s and stuff in this situation, K7s? All Axs, etc....in these multi-way pots?
4. I am hardly 3-betting at all...(I need to take some more notes on ranges) But...when someone opens, it's usually 99+, AJ+ I believe, even from late position people don't seem to open up wider or be positionally aware. I see a lot of people just limping KQ and even AQ, and of course slowplays with AA-QQ, AK(s), and of course all sorts of shit. So in training videos I see coaches isolating fish with 3-bets with AT, A9, KQ, whatever, basically a linear value range...but I don't think I should do that since I perceive most opening ranges to be tight...should I for instance be 3-betting AK, QQ, JJ and folding to 4-bets, or just flatting them vs. what I believe to be a tight range. I've been flatting.
-Thanks a bunch, I'll probably end up getting in some more discussion about other live situations.
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Sup PutMyRobeOnRITE
QUESTION 1: OPEN RAISING RANGE FROM EP/MP
You've made a keen observation that low limit live players like to call with a wide range preflop. They like to see flops. These players also do not really understand stack-to-pot ratio, which is important when considering what they call with. Some live players will call 5bb raises with 50bb stacks with J7s, in the hope of making a flush, or hitting a jack and making top pair. They don't realize that there's only a ~2% chance of flopping a flush, and that they are in no way priced in to call, since they don't have the implied odds to speculate with their short stacks. They also don't recognize that their top pair bad kicker (J with 7 kicker) will only get into big pots when they are beat by stronger kickers like AJ. So they call. Many of these players aren't afraid to play out of position, so they call too much from there as well. They also feel like they are 'priced in' when 2 or more players before them have called. Average Joe live player looks down at his XX of xx and sees that 3 people have called in front of him, and he decided that the pot is large enough for him to call as well, despite the call being -EV.
On top of all this, players who have already limped feel emotionally committed to the pot and their hand, and they'll limp and call 5x just to see a flop, because, hell, I already put some money in, and I want to see a flop!
An example:
UTG limps A3s for $2 "I might hit an ace... or better!"
UTG+1 (Hero) raises AQo to $10
MP folds
MP+1 calls with 76s, because "I'm going to stack you when I hit my draw"
HJ calls with QTo, because "I could hit a Queen or a ten and have top pair, or a straight!"
CO folds
BU calls with J7s, because "I'm priced in"
SB folds
BB folds
UTG calls with his A3s, because "I already put money in"
Your raise from early position with AQ has gone 5 ways. You have about a 30% chance of hitting an Ace, a Queen or better on the flop. This is awful! You can't c-bet bluff into 4 people OOP! What does any sane player do? Check fold.
So how do we adjust our game to account for live loose-passive preflop play?
First you should recognize that in this kind of game, the preflop value of speculative hands goes down, while good old top pair type hands increase in value. Stacks are often short, and the pot is often massive on the flop, since it often goes multiway. It's unlikely that someone has flopped a made hand (2 pair+), but it's quite likely that someone has flopped a straight draw, a flush draw, or a pair. The good news is, that if you have a high card hand like AQ, there's a 32% chance you flop an A or a Q, so you only need to make back around 3x your original raise on average to break even. That's a simplification of the EV, but I think it gives you the right idea. The good news is that these players are bad enough that you don't need to c bet bluff AQ OOP multiway to show a profit. The equity of the hand vs our opponents ranges does a lot of the work for us. Bet sizing on later streets is an important factor though.
So from early and middle position you want to play pretty tight, because it's going to be very hard to "outplay" people OOP multiway. Someone somewhere is likely to have flopped something, and your c-bets become less profitable. It's boring, it's simple, but it works. If you try to get tricky with these guys from OOP you're just going to outplay yourself. The table conditions that you're experiencing are the primordial ooze from which the ABC TAG style emerged, and it's also where it is the most effective.
So I would recommend raising something in the range of TT+, AJ+ from EP, but it depends on the players you're playing against.
I limp/call lower pocket pairs (22-99) from EP. It's a good strategy if you opponents aren't trying to hand read, because your implied odds are better and the pot is kept manageable. You can build the pot on later streets if you hit your set.
From late position (off topic :P) you can open up your game, and this really depends on the players around you, and their stack sizes. Consider case A and B.
A Let's say you're all sitting there with 100bb and you're on the button with 87s and you think every player left in the hand will call to see a flop, and check fold if they miss. If they hit you think they will become married to top pair and stack off with it. This is a great situation to raise it up, since your c-bets will be effective on the flop and you have good implied odds when they call and you have a draw, since your opponents are stacking off when they shouldn't.
B Let's say you hold 87s with all remaining players 50bb deep. You think every player will call preflop, since they're super loose, and you think many of them will call your c-bets - simply because they have A8, and A8 is a good hand and "I want to see another card and hit my Ace dammit!". This isn't a great time to raise, because you don't have much fold equity preflop or on the flop, and you don't have the implied odds. In this case consider limping or folding.
Two final notes on things I've been thinking about lately with respect to preflop play:
If players are playing KT like AK, and K5 like KT when they hit their K on the flop, then I think middle kicker
hands like KT go up in value.
These live games have massive preflop raises as the standard (5x+). When you call these raises your effective stack size is lowered by the size of the raise, and you are less likely to get good implied odds when drawing with a speculative hand (eg flush draw on the flop with 87s)
Also what do you think of this sc'er scenario.....
I'm the co
Fish 1 limps (80 bb stack)
Fish 2 limps (200 bb stack)
Fish 3 Raises to 15 dollars (140 bb stack)
Fish 4 calls
Hero has Axs, K9s, or 98s-32s, 97s-42s etc.. there are no squeezers behind, and it's likely button and blinds will throw chips in because Goddamnit they have pot odds :-) and Fish 1 and 2 will come along too, like you said, they already "invested" Do you think I should get in because we are deep enough and I have enough "implied" odds due to how bad people are, or do you think fold because spr will be too low?
-thanks
If we assume that you have 0 fold equity (the whole table calls your UTG raise 100% of the time) then I think you could make a case for limping these hands, if we assume opponents are limping enough weaker, dominated, like K9o. And if we also assume they are not raising you out of the pot when you limp.
Lets say you are only playng Axs for flush value, you fold everything else (full house, whatever)
Assume you make your flush draw on 1% of flops and a FD on 11% of flops.
You make your FD on 20% of turns, and 20% of rivers calling 1/2 PSB.
We'll say there are 4 players including you so it's $60 OTF and heads up OTT and OTR.
This is all pretty optimistic.
When you make your flush (nut flush with A2s) you always stack of with a guy with 150bb ($300) and win his stack + the dead money.
So when you flop a flush you win 300 (your stack) + 300 (their stack) + $30 (dead money) = $630
When you don't make your nut flush you always lose whatever you invested in the pot.
Preflop you call $15
88% of the time you check fold the flop after you whiff it and lose $15.
1% of the time you win when you flop your flush. $630.
11% of the time you flop a FD. You invest an extra $30 and 20% of the time turn a flush, and get your whole stack in for $630
11% of the time you flop a FD. 80% of the time you miss OTT and invest another $60 to see a river card. 20% of the time you win for $630.
Ok let's see what this spits out!
EV Whiffing Flop
-15*88% = -13.2
EV Flop Flush
+630*1% = +6.3
EV Flop FD and make it OTT
+630*11%*20% = 13.9
EV Flop FD and make it OTR
+630*11%*80%*20% = 11.1
EV Flop FD miss OTT miss OTR
(-15-30-60)*11%*80%*80% = -7.4
EV = -13.2 + 6.3 +13.9 + 11.1 - 7.4 = +10.7
Open limping isn't an absolute evil, it's not even always -EV. It's often not the best move though.
I play in a game where the stacks are short and players call a lot preflop. The short stacks give us lower implied odds, since there is less money to win when we stack off. The loose passive preflop nature of our opponents gives us less fold equity preflop, which should make raising less profitable, unless we plan on c-betting future streets to get them off their weak hands.
When raising is less profitable, and we rely more on the equity of our hole cards, it may be better to open limp speculative hands, like low pocket pairs, suited connectors and suited 1 gappers. I'll open limp A-rag suited from LP if I think I can get it to the flop. You are improving your implied odds by limping these hands.
The questions you should ask yourself before limping is:
"Could I just make these guys fold by raising?"
"Is someone else going to make me call or fold by raising?" (btw if you're going to call a raise pre, just raise)
"Is this an implied odds hand or a reverse-implied odds hand?" (how does it fare in a big pot?)
"Do I plan on sometimes picking up the pot when I don't hit?"
Also your opponents at low limit live games very rarely know what balance is, how it works, or how to exploit unbalanced play, except in the most basic ways. No one is thinking "this specific guy is limping I should punish him". Perhaps "this guy's a maniac I call", "this guy is a rock who never bluffs, I fold", but not much further than that. Limps are pretty non-descript and are considered standard by live players.
Consider a raise first though. Talk yourself out of raising before you limp. I think passive is also a key word here.
As you become deeper, disguised hands increase in value preflop, because stacking off becomes more profitable.
I'd ditch 53s, since not everybody is deep, and that seems like a deep stack hand to me. Same goes with Kxs and Axs. You're easily dominated multiway if you don't hit your flush/FD and you implied odds aren't that good.
I'm not 100% on this one, but I remember Bart Hanson made some comment about the stack size of the preflop raises being important. If he's got 300bb, you have 300bb, and everyone else has 60bb then maybe you could make a case, since the PFR should be the most likely to have strong holdings based on gap theory. Strong holdings are good for you if you want him to stack off when you make your straight/flush/2pair/whatever, but they're bad if you're planning on stabbing at the pot. I'm guessing your aim with SC is to stack a guy, right?
Personally I'm folding a lot of speculative hands in this scenario, because I'm not confident I could play them profitably.
I don't really know about this question though. Hopefully someone else could tune in on this one.
A couple of words on 3 betting live.
People call them too much. Way too much. It's great. Ever tried sqeezing live?
UTG limps $2
UTG +1 folds
MP limp $2
HJ raises to $10
CO calls $10
BU folds
SB (Hero) raises to $35
BB folds
UTG calls $32
MP calls $32
HJ folds
CO calls $25
Pot $150
Yeah squeezing... lol.
Anyway. It sounds like the games you are playing are loose passive preflop with a very tight raising range. A lot of these training videos are aimed at higher stakes where the donks are a bit more aggressive preflop. If these guys are only raising a tight range I would 3 bet premiums only (JJ+, AK), and flat with your good but not awesome hands (AJo). There's no need to balance your range.
Basically I agree with your proposed solution.
Also I agree that many players live low limit players are not positionally aware.
This is a pretty good article about 3betting light live: http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue91/todd-estes-live-no-limit-holdem.php
I think some players would be less inclined to make it 15 after you make it 6 and 3 players call.
I'm going to give it a whirl this weekend and see how it plays.
I've started to listen to Bart Hanson's podcasts from the beginning to try to get a better handle on the madness of live low-limit. I had to move down from $2/5 because I couldn't adjust quickly enough.
By the way, I can't seem to go back into what I've already written (to add a thought or correct punctuation etc.) The cursor just doesn't respond. Anybody have any tips on that?
What I've found is that if I raise $15 in $1/3 game (most players about 100BB) I'll get too many callers and if I raise $20+ I usually get just the blinds. I always hope for the premiums in later position because I'm assured of getting at least one of the limpers to call. Also, if I'm deepstacked enough (+100BB) I do limp along or even open limp with spec hands - 67s+ and any low pockets because otherwise I think I'm missing out on value. The number of hands I've seen worked like the nuts (like top pair weak kicker all the way to the river) means playing more specs lets me lead the dog to massive returns sometimes, or get out cheap otherwise.
If it's a table where 6-way limped pots are common, and no one raises a whole lot, nor folds to raises when there occasionally is a raise, then open limping 44-88 should be okay.
Open raise something like
99+, AJs+, AKo as a default, maybe go wider if people fold a lot. If it is an aggro table(wheather good aggro or bad aggro) just stick to these hands in EP. If it is bad loose passive then you can open limp some stuff like 44-88, ATs, KQs, if it's bad tight passive then maybe open some of these hands. And it's okay to limp behind when in position especially on the button. Have a raising and limping range when IP behind other limpers, and raise for pure value. And when you raise for value, try to find that sweet spot where you are basically opening the maximum size that they will still call. So, if they will fold to a 10x bb raise but call 9x then go with 9x, etc...
@OP
1) game conditions vary so you need to be thinking about what you can and can't do on a given table. ask your self what you want to accomplish with your bet and decide on range and bet size given what you know about the table. if i sat at 1/2 with mostly full stacks and was readless i would open to $10 with 22+AQo+AJs+KQs+ and fold everything else.
2) if the table is really passive and they play really bad post flop i think it is OK to open limp 22-88 and maybe some Axs if there are some big fish who are really deep(at least 150bb) but in general i prefer open raising especially with lots of deep stacks
3) if you are on the BUT/CO and it is raise+multiple callers with most stacks over 100bb i would call with 76s+, 97s+, Axs, 22+, suited B-way. exactly how wide you can call is a function of your skill advantage and stack depth so it is hard to give concrete answers
4) you will not have many chances to 3B when everyone limps. as far as 3B - i generally 3B with at least JJ+/AK and but if you think their range is so tight you can call but so often the pot is already multiway when it gets to you to a 3BSQ is better. i wouldn't want to make a habit of 3B/folding my value range but sometimes it is the right play
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