Solvers - where to start
Posted by fzth1
Posted by
fzth1
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Mid Stakes
Solvers - where to start
Hi,
I am returning to poker after having been away from the game for a while. I played professionally over 10 years ago but the last few years I’ve only played a couple of times a month.
I would like to try to put in some work to be able to compete in todays game, I understand solvers, PIO, Monkier, GTO+ etc. Plays a big party in todays theory, but I am lost on where to start.
1) Any advice on where to start to learn to work with solvers?
2) Which solver do you recommend for a beginner? I am looking for a reasonably priced option for NL200-1k, 6max.
Any advice in general is much appreciated.
Best,
Fzth1
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I repeat myself and I know that some might disagree: a solver is not a LEARNING tool!
Compare it with a kid, learning math in the first school year (my son is too old now to still take him as a reference :D). Does he learn with pocket calculator? No!! Because a pocket calculator does not teach or help to learn, it simply gives a naked result. And the kid had to believe it. If it wanted to know what 2+2 is - and accidentally typed in 2+3, the calc would say 5. And the kid had would "learn" that 2+2 were 5.
And Pio (like any solver) IS a pocket calculator. It's not a tool to learn about strategies. It's about solving scenarios and get "the" answer. Obviously you can play around, lock nodes (fix certain strategies), analyze ranges, vary betsizes and such - but it's for many reasons not the most efficient way to learn:
Just look at the various posts around here where people getting desperate while trying to understand the solver result in a certain scenario.
All that said, when one of my coachees asks me for what the right way is to attach that field, I recommend the following:
That is the way I would recommend. :-)
BigFiszh
This post is astonishing, ty for that
BigFiszh,
Thank you very much for your reply, I will follow your advise and work in the order you suggested.
A couple of follow up questions on the points above:
1) Do you have any advise on how to improve my GTO knowledge?
2) I've had a look at the first few instruction videos at CREV. My understanding is that it also includes a solver. In my head I think it would be good to learn more about which part of my range that "I should do" what with. E.g: Let's say I open 70% of buttons, SB folds and BB calls 35% of his range. Flop is XXX, which part of my range does the solver recommend I c-bet given stack sizes etc. Is this something the CREV program can do? Can it also run these calculations if SB and BB calls and we are 3 handed to the flop?
3) What specifically is it that the PioSolver can do that CREV can't?
Once again, thank you very much for your kind help.
ad 1) I'd suggest reading the books of Will Tipton:
https://www.amazon.com/Expert-Heads-Limit-Holdem-Exploitative/dp/1904468942/
https://www.amazon.com/Expert-Heads-Limit-Holdem-Play/dp/1909457035/
They are great to understand the topic. Aside from that, coaching would be a convenient way, obv.
ad 2) CREV solver can solve flops and tell you what range to take what action with. It CANNOT handle 3-way scenarios though.
ad 3) At the very basic level, CREV-solver and Pio are identical (and will deliver the same result). On the more advanced level, there are differences: CREV shows the entire tree (visually), Pio doesn't. Pio is way faster, as it's optimized for the solving task, CREV solver is "just" an add-on-product. Furthermore, Pio can be scripted and be used to perform huge automated tasks, i.e. solving multiple scenarios and then create aggregated statistical reports.
Thank you very much! I will get the books and CREV - really appreciate the help. Thank you!
Looking at CREV, GTO+ seems to be a type of add-on to the software. If CREV already includes a solver, is there any value to GTO+?
It has been a while since I used CREV but its interface is more cumbersome than GTO plus as you have to build the tree yourself. Also I think you need to resolve for each turn and river combo you’re interested in.
GTO plus makes ah this way better and it supports light scripting and the ability to solve a spot for a limited number of flops that are representative of all possible flops
No.
And ... no. ;-D
One hint about the books of Tipton:
You will need a fresh mind and deep concentration to get through this stuff :)
Thanks for the correction. It’s been almost 10 years since I used CREV. What is the difference between it and GTO plus
Watch some GTO videos in the learning paths part of RIO and watch live play and live play/Pio hybrid videos to see how they apply it (and don't apply it :).
Recommended Vids for a general idea
Saulo Ribiero: Systematic Process for Strategy Dev, SB vs BB Drill
Peter Clarke: Training on Simple GTO
Watch everything by Peter Clarke, Henry Lister, Patrik Sekinger and Saulo.
Thanks a lot. I will check out the videos.
I still don't really understand the added value of GTO+ compared to CREV?
GTO+ is a Nash Equilibrium solver. You provide a set of ranges for OOP and IP, choose a particular flop along with bet and raise sizing options for each street, and when done solving, it will give you a complete solution for the model that you built.
CREV is not a Nash solver. It does have an equilibrium solver tool that comes with it, but I don't have much information about it.
Using CREV, you build a tree manually for all the branches that you need, then specify ranges for each of those actions, and when you make a test EV run, it will show you the EVs for each action you take at every decision point in the tree. You can also look at EVs for individual combinations within ranges to see how those particular hands do in comparison to others. The main value in CREV comes from being able to modify ranges at different points and see how that affects the EV of that decision and the EVs at earlier nodes in the tree. This helps you fine-tune your exploitative understanding of spots better as you carry out more and more sims on different spots with different test assumptions.
GTO+ will show you what optimal play is supposed to look like within a given model. CREV will help you a lot more in taking advantage of pool imbalances and making high incentivised exploits vs unbalanced villains.
If you have more questions, just shoot me a PM :)
Additionally, CREV has a function to predefine an entire tree automatically.
It's pretty handy and afaik it uses the same engine as GTO+ (would be surprising if not), so only difference is the different user interface - where GTO+ is better tuned for easy definition of tree parameters and quicker overview of results.
Where exactly is this? I haven't seen this functionality and haven't seen any mentions of it in CREV either.
Right click on the node where you want to auto generate the tree. For example SB vs BB your first flop node should be SB. If you hover over it with your cursor you will see fold/raise/bet/NL. Just right click on the SB button. It will give a new window where you can enter betsizes and it will generate that tree.
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