Do you need PIO to go with GTO Plus? Looking to just use some type of GTO trainer without PIO. Don't want to invest a ton i.e having to upgrade computer to run sims for PIO, so looking to avoid PIO for now if possible. Maybe as I climb higher levels, it would be good investment. What you described in GTO Plus is what I think I am looking for.

With GTO trainer, If you got pro version, do you need to buy packs as well? I watched some videos on GTO PLUS, seemed less appealing to me than GTO trainer. Have to do more research though.

For GTO Trainer Pro all you get with it is the core GTO pack which is pretty incomplete, especially for cash game specialist.

One thing I forgot to mention is that it runs much faster than Simple GTO trainer. Loading a new hand in Simple GTO Trainer takes a few seconds for me. In GTO+ it's basically instant.

GTOplus is its own solver. My ~3 year old gaming desktop that cost about $1k does pretty well with it. I can set it up to solve 23 boards for something like BTN v BB in an SRP with 2 sizings per street and it'll finish it overnight. Each board takes about 20 minutes or so for this spot. Spots with narrower ranges and fewer betsizing options go faster. So I run a few spots for like BTN v BB SRB, SB v BTN 3b pot, and BB v BTN 3b pot and use the built in play against the solution functionality to train on those results.

Really the only limiting factor is RAM which can prevent you from using very complicated trees. But you should be able to do basic solves with almost anything supported and it will just take longer.

I'll attach a few photos in a moment to show why I prefer GTOplus.

This one shows the basic UI. You can follow along with the solution at the top, it advances along with the game - I try not to look at this when I'm training though.

Choose which position or alternate, flopzilla integration, training history, etc.

This one shows me clicking on a mistake. I can see exactly where I made a mistake, the correct action(s), and the cost in EV. It brings up a replay for the hand where I can step through and see exact frequencies and EVs at each decision point.

And I can always click into any node in the tree at the top to look at the entire solution. This is helpful for trying to understand how each range is balanced. I think this is the most valuable piece. With just GTO Trainer, you either need to figure out on your own how to balance or play zillions of hands in the trainer so that you get a sense of frequencies across your range.

Brett Banks how do you like GTO+? I have the demo and I'm playing around with it. I'm intrigued.

CrappyTimeSlot 100% worth it

Mudkip I will take another look at the tutorials.

Every so often I’m tempted to buy Pio because it’s the standard most coaches use and there are more resources out there.

But GTO+ is better in many ways. Solves can converge to 0 Nash distance, scripting doesn’t cost extra (though I’m not certain if Pio scripting is more powerful), there is a play against solution mode built in, flopzilla integration, more intuitive interface, etc.

So considering the price and functionality difference over pio I think it’s a clear buy. There may be reasons to buy the scriptable Pio or edge version that apply to higher stakes players but I haven’t come across the need yet.

Did you like GTO+ more than GTO trainer? I wanna play against the computer. The training videos looked really good to me with GTO Trainer. Would like to set semi narrow ranges though instead of wide ranges. I think my pool is tighter than usual preflop.

RaoulFlush i am looking at getting gto+ too and would be interested in this. Could you post a thread if you do set something like this up?

I'd be interested. I think it will be especially interesting to see how different preflop inputs and postflop sizing options impact solutions without such a significant time investment.

I am interested also. My issue ATM is getting reasonably accurate ranges for pool since I haven't exactly played a ton of hands at my current stake.

Solving UTG vs BU flat atm and it takes a lot of time :/

RaoulFlush How long are we talking? I would assume a 15% RFI range and 8%-10% flatting range wouldn't take too long. Is this solving for all flops?

If you are serious about sharing solves, we should for the moment set up a thread for this. We will also need to figure out what to do for storage and such. I'm thinking that if we use bittorrent we can just update the torrent periodically as new solves are added and people can just use it to download the collection of solves.

EDIT: Setting up a thread would also us clarify ahead of time what solved need to be done, hash out and clarify the ranges and trees to be used, and provide a way to update whatever links or files need to be updated.

I would say these ranges should be more black and white, at least for single raise pots. Would definitely need to be organized if people do share all these solves though.

to join our skypegroup: please use following link:

https://join.skype.com/en5b17SYI7GY

Hey mate, the best cheap solver is GTO+, the best solver is probably PIO solver. Snowie isn't a solver and uses a different way to come to a strategy. This doesn't mean that Snowie is bad or not useful, its just not GTO. There also seems to be a new "online" type of solver like LucidGTO or GTOwizard I believe these all have free trials so you should probably check these out first. Hope this helps!

I have GTO+ but almost never use it since getting wizard. Also have snowie for another month or so as you purchase 1 year at a time. PIO is good for some very detailed spots. GTO+ allows you to drill but need to create your own trees. Wizard and snowie both allow you to drill but have to use the ranges they have. Ranges are pretty accurate but some bet sizes need improvement. Having used all of them, I am a huge fan of wizard. I think Lucid might give it a run for its money based on coaching videos. Lucid seems to have better bet sizing and if you have PIO can import your own ranges based on what psek said.

Lucid or wizard for #1 spot
I do not think scientist really comes close at all from what I have seen. If you are not looking to pay $40-$60\month then snowie probably next best for drilling at $100\year.

GTO+ is nice once you have a bunch of formations solved. Might need a good computer to solve everything if you want to drill though.

You can use 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 3/4, pot, and 2x pot. Snowie doesn't really give the range charts so much as other solvers where you see the frequency of different plays. It's always nice to train vs the "Ai" being heads up to 10 handed game. It is a really good foundation I think. I still high prefer wizard though! I think the main downside you are going to find in snowie is the respect it gives to limpers! And how many AXs it likes to 3bet, 4bet, 5bet etc. It is very aggro with AXs. If someone limps in, it will also advise to over limp with hands such as JJ! Then again other solvers are not really programed to deal with limpers!

For Wizard it is only 1 day free trial, but I still highly recommend trying it out. I think it's worth the monthly price. Some times you get what you pay for!