[SH] NL100 Zoom AQo in BB

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[SH] NL100 Zoom AQo in BB

BN: $109.81
SB: $104.16
BB: $101.16 (Hero)
UTG: $203.03
HJ: $159.28
CO: $100
CO is a regular but no history or stats. I know he is a regular because of entries played and being fulls stacked.
Preflop ($1.50) (6 Players)
Hero was dealt Q A
UTG folds, HJ folds, CO raises to $3, BN folds, SB folds, Hero calls $2
Closing the action against probably solid CO I think calling is likely to be better than 3betting but definitely understand there are arguments for 3betting.
Flop ($6.50) 5 Q 6 (2 Players)
Hero checks, CO bets $4.25, Hero calls $4.25
Do you think check/raising for value here makes sense? Most regulars view a check/raise here as a draw sine 55-66 doesn't call 100% pre, QQ 3bets pre, 65s unlikely thus we look like a flushdraw or lower equity bluff.
Turn ($15.00) 5 Q 6 A (2 Players)
Hero checks, CO bets $10, Hero calls $10
River ($35.00) 5 Q 6 A 9 (2 Players)
Hero checks, CO bets $24, Hero calls $24
As played on the flop, would you change from check/call line unless you river the nuts? If so, why?

27 Comments

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thedoors 12 years, 2 months ago
Interestin hand
i would 3 bet preflop to have strong hands when i 3 bet bb but we can call and play posflop
flop is hard because if we x raise we isolate against better hands. But dont know how to play well turn on drawy board. I dont know how to balance a check call flop + donk turn
so i would check raise flop and get stacks vs push
as played i would check raise turn
thedoors 12 years, 2 months ago
And river some Q and A who thinks you bluff your missed draw
newt 12 years, 2 months ago
You can surely raise this river to rep missed hearts or a spazzy-what-do-i-do bluff. Your line is weird, you can expect to get paid off a lot here. And, he is rarely 3betting river as a pure bluff....you can safely fold if he 3b river with 78
event78 12 years, 2 months ago
I think it's close river cause he needs to bluffcatch with Ax (even KK/Qx) because there aren't enough 2 pairs combos 56s/A6s/A5s/A9s/Q9s compared to AA/QQ/55/66/78s (if vilain was BU, I would more easily shove river cause of more 2 pairs combos) so he needs to bluffcatch with AK/AJ/AT...
I disagree, without any history/dynamic against a std grinder, I get a lot of folds in this spot when I bluff raise river probably because most regs assume that at 100nl there aren't enough bluff raises river (probably a correct assumption). Vilain may expect you to play aggressively your draw flop or turn (at least sometimes) you rep really well AQ/set, so to bluffcatch with Ax he needs to put you on a double float OOP (JT/KT/KJ or a Qx/PP turned into bluff) or that you fastplay your big hand very often flop or turn.

I think you took the best line in a vacuum against a reg, without history you probably wouldn't induce enough 4bet bluff/lighter for value cause it's not a the best spot for resteal (BBvsCO). Flop I wouldn't c/r for value cause you don't have any c/r dynamic so he's probably less likely to float your c/r and you don't know his range for cbetting (polarized = less good); moreover, nothing prevents you from DBing turn on cards you don't expect him to bluff. Turn is the best card for you cause I expect him to bluff turn and river. I wouldn't raise turn for protection (you block some Ax/Qx) cause it's a perfect spot for him to value thin and bluff river.
Parker Muir 12 years, 2 months ago
I might 3b for value pre, but fold to a 4b depending how tight he is.

I think you should be check raising the turn since there are two flush draws and you really don't rep a whole lot as you said when discussing flop. It's also a spot where he gets stubborn with an A or Q due to the drawy nature of the board. Then when the river bricks he can possible talk himself into a call. However, I don't expect a 100nl reg to bet that many of his bare Ax hands 3 streets for value unless they are 2pair (which will all of course stack off to a xr).
EmanuelC16 12 years, 2 months ago
You would also stack off on the turn if he shoves? Turn check/raise = strength for most standard NL100 regs so I'm a bit worried about actually getting value. What type of hands would you bluff on the turn?
@3barreling: If he doesn't bet almost any Ax for 3 streets then we can probably bluffcatch Qx on bricks. Do you think we show up with weaker than Qx on the river with our line?
Parker Muir 12 years, 2 months ago
Yes definitely stacking off on turn. Although I feel like stacking off implies we are often beat, I would consider it "happily getting it in."

Turn bluffing range would include a some FDs/combo FDs and/or 5x, 6x (blockers).

Agreed about sometimes bluff catching Qx OTR against the right type of guy who really doesn't value bet thinly. No I think it would be pretty rare for us to show up with worse than Qx on the riv.
EmanuelC16 12 years, 2 months ago
Okay, makes sense for bluff range.. River Qx call obv depends a bit on his freqeuncy and inability to bet Ax but seems like the only hands we could call since we don't have many that flat here OOP anyway.
chigah 12 years, 2 months ago
holy hell. first of all I would like to 3b for value (if you can't 3b this hand for value in these positions then I think something is wrong with your 3b range). Second, the flop play is very much up to you in my opinion, both, cr and c/c are very viable options. HOWEVER, you misplay the turn greatly by c/c imo. with the flop FD, BDFD, OESD, and broad way gutshots on the turn and this turn card being pretty much one of the best cards for us I strongly believe we should be C/R here OTT almost always. It's very hard for me to think of a scenario where c/c on this board with our hand would be a good idea.

YES, we are c/raise-calling here with our hand.
moral of the story: villain has super wide range of draws and value hands that we all beat, please c/r for value.
EmanuelC16 12 years, 2 months ago
Something's wrong with your assumption that everyone opens 40% to 3bb on CO and never folds to a 3bet if you think this is a 3bet without any history in Zoom against what seems like a regular on NL100. I would like to 3bet for value too, I would also like the villain to get it in with all worse aces but what are the chances of that heppening preflop?

Back to more serious stuff about postflop: If we check/raise here, what is our perceive bluff range and what is our check/calling range that doesn't fold river?
chigah 12 years, 2 months ago
@emanuelC16, The fact that you have no reads on this guy except that he is an unknown regular is probably a even greater reason for me to 3b this hand pre. I don't think a regular reg opens 40% in the co. probably around the 25-30% mark. I do believe AQ plays better to 3b in these positions than to call given our assumptions on an unknown reg.

As for our hands that we c/r the turn with might include weak pair + FD, fd+straightdraws, FD's.

As for your last question, I think that we should first think about whether or not we should have a c/c range OTT? and if so, why? I think whenever you c/c this turn, we almost always bluff catch the river vs a range that has a 20-30% or better equity vs us OTT. I am not a fan of playing guessing games on the river where their bet is all in to be honest. I guess you could c/c some AhXh hands.
Sauce123 12 years, 2 months ago
chigah- You're pretty much spot on here. There are two situations where we might want to check/call turn though, (1) since we have AQ, villain will hold more bluffs than normal and if he fires rivers too much and folds a good amount to turn c/r we might want to get that bet, (2) It might be right to call turn if villain overbets large on blank rivers.
Sauce123 12 years, 2 months ago
Edit: with your first post, the second thing I disagree with. 3betting is fine here but so is calling, and we definitely have a turn check/call range- flushdraws, and Qx/Ax basically.
chigah 12 years, 2 months ago
@Ben Sulsky, I agree and like the point you bring up about a scenario where a villains over betting tendencies may influence us to c/c turn here with AQ. However, we don't know this information about said villain, so what would you suggest as a "standard" play given our limited information. Would you automatically assume as a "standard" that regs overbet jam a lot of blank rivers here as a bluff? Could you elaborate why we need to c/c wider than AhXh/QhXh? Also, vs an unknown villain that we perceive as a regular, what pre-flop line do you believe is most +EV in these positions, 3b or call? If you could only choose one or the other what would it be? and why?
EmanuelC16 12 years, 2 months ago
Thanks for the solid input from both. Would definitely like to hear more input on turn + river range construction here like chigah asked.
Sauce123 12 years, 2 months ago
Chigah- I think standard here is definitely check/call flop, check/raise turn. Preflop standard is to 3bet, but I think it's closer than you do (this is partly because you think players open 25-30% here and I find they open more like 18-32%).

As far as turn calling, if you fold everything but 2PR+ on this turn you end up folding at least 80% of your range which gives villain too much EV to barrel hands like KcJx. If I'm playing against someone who folds that much on scare cards, I'm just going to cbet nearly 100% and go pretty wild when I see the board get scary.
chigah 12 years, 2 months ago
@Ben Sulsky Thanks! I suppose I should assume a tighter range on average for villains. And I see, but i'm a little on the fence about whether or not a 100nl reg is going to catch up onto my whole range here and start exploiting me by barreling three streets on all run outs on this texture :\ But, obviously I suppose it makes sense that it allows villain to barrel wider with his whole range.
John Shamwoww 12 years, 2 months ago
In a vacuum I'd donk bet pretty big on the river as played simply because i think your hand is too strong to just check/call on this board 3 streets.

Given we do miss out on his bluffs on the river, i think that is made up by the calls we get from strong Qx, Ax or KK which check back river.

My standard would probably be to c/r the turn. It screams strength but i doubt he folds an Ace in this spot to one bet.
James Hudson 12 years, 2 months ago
I really don't like leading the river here, it seems incredibly tough to balance. Also, as you said, when we lead we lose out on his bluff which should be semi frequent on this runout. Finally, if you expect him to bet call turn with most Ax why would he check back Ax on the river after going bet bet?
Tazar1981 12 years, 2 months ago
This line looks superweak imo, if ch call river vs spaz monkey then ok, but plz a good reg is gonna vbet river kq+ omg, although have not played zoom for ages, so I don't really know how nitcakes play these days. I would definitely cr vs barrelhappy moron and raise fold to smthn like 58 which looks sick still a lot of stubborn ax, weaker two pairs are gonna call as they wont put u on aces hp agter u cc turn...

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