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Recommended 6max Winrates By Position

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Posted by posted in Low Stakes

Recommended 6max Winrates By Position

Ive just started playing a bit of 6max after moving from FR and Im wondering if anyone can shed some light on what would be decent winrates by position in bb/100?

For instance at FR in the blinds I were working on losing 20bb/100 for the SB and 40bb/100 for the BB were pretty average and any better than that we are doing well. What about for the other positions?

Any help would be appreciated.

10 Comments

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BigFiszh 11 years, 11 months ago
I know you know that and I further know you´ll get the same answer probably like 6 more times :D - but I´ll do it anyways: you should forget about winrates from positions. The problem is sample size. Just take a winrate simulator and compare different players over 100k hands with decent overall winrates. Swings are enormous!! And please notice, that standard deviation (and variance) are way bigger in 6max than in FR.

Now consider that over 100k hands you only saw every position in 16k hands. Now re-enter the simulation over only 16k hands - and you´ll see that it´s pretty much worthless to strive at (or even care about) positional winrates unless you have like 3 mio. hands. But as soon as you collected that many hands you probably have significantly altered your game many times in certain areas so winrates differ over single timeframes and what you´ll see will always be a foggy average.

Short: ignore winrates, even more so positional.

/rant :)
GameTheory 11 years, 11 months ago
Even if Martin hasn't played 3 million hands at his stakes/site, other regs combined certainly have.
If they have a decent sample their winrates should be accurate and something that Martin can compare his winrates to.
BigFiszh 11 years, 11 months ago
Surely, but what does he compare? Say he has 100k hands on his own - and sees he´s making significantly less on the BTN (over 16k hands) then the "pool". What does that tell him? What information can he pull out of that? And who / what tells him it´s not pure variance? AIEV is just one side of the medal as we all know ...
GameTheory 11 years, 11 months ago
Well if he is making less on the button for example, that could indicate that he is either running bad or playing bad. For instance if the top regs make 20bb/100 on the button and Martin makes 6bb/100, then Martin knows that the sum of the money that he loses due to running bad and playing bad must be around 14bb/100.

Whereas if nobody told him the winrates that he could achieve at his stakes, he had no comparision so he could not even conclude that his winrate was subpar and be content with it. Then he would work on his game from the blinds while his games from the button was lacking much more.
Michael Gazonda 11 years, 11 months ago
Or, another option is that his button play is a minor loss leader for his overall game plan.

The idea is that focusing too much on optimizing one specific area of your game can be detrimental if it opens up problems in other parts of your game. I've seen this in myself and others... and I've seen the benefits of making a "bad" play only to have an opponent compensate by making a bunch more bad plays because they've over-adjusted.
MartL1 11 years, 11 months ago
Thanks for the replies guys.

I think all Im really wanting is a basis point to start with like GameTheory suggests. Ive tried to do a bit of research and it seems that my loss rates from the blinds should be less than at FR but Im not sure by how much. Should they be halfed? Also speaking to a few people it seems about 20bb/100 for the CO and 30bb/100 for the BTN is pretty decent at FR.

I think thats where the problem lies though in that I can look at my overall WR and have a good sense of how I am doing but it hard to say without having a rough idea of numbers how I am performing in spots like the blinds.

At the moment my WR by position looks like this SB -8bb/100 BB -37bb/100 EP 23bb/100 MP 9bb/100 Co 11bb/100 BTN 23bb/100. So going on that so far my opinion is that Im leaking in the BB and probably running good in EP but not winning as much as I should from the CO and BTN. Now obviously I can go over hands in those positions to get a feel how I am running but without having a sense of averages its really hard to know if Im over or underperforming in general.
WM2K 11 years, 11 months ago
I m in the "this is near useless information" camp. First as Bigfiszh says theres just a lot of noise especially once your starting to break your samples down into smaller and smaller bits. Then what is the information going to teach you? Say you find out that you suck at the button maybe. So? Whats the next step and what can be truly taken away from this information other then you need to get a stronger understanding of poker.

Perhaps some useful information can be taken away from it but the amount of time you spend figuring it out is it not just more productive to analyze postflop trouble spots thoroughly? I mean like full range analysis with your tool of choice (oracle, crev or whatever) on both sides of the problem. Your going to improve your understanding of your ranges and their ranges and what to do about it sooooo much more faster then you will by compiling a big database and then finding out that your probably not winning as much as you could in positions. Watch Leforts 6 max series if you want ideas about how to approach preflop problems and how to factor them in.

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